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Attacking the Atheists Foundation on the streets

God commands us to close the mouths of unbelievers.

Have you ever had a conversation with an atheist that never seemed to get anywhere? How do you close the mouth of an unbeliever? To open their minds to see their own foolishness? Two months ago, Chad from Living Waters ministries had never considered the idea of challenging someone’s assumptions instead of challenging the evidence that they present. After watching the “Proving God” series on www.creationtoday.org, Chad got the book The Ultimate Proof by Dr. Jason Lisle and read it in one day! Within two months of studying how the atheist really thinks and what God says about that, Chad had an opportunity to put his study into practice on the streets against an atheist. By the end of the conversation, God had used Chad to “close the mouth” of the unbeliever and show him exactly what is necessary for salvation.

Be advised that there are a few curse words in this footage as it is raw, uncut footage and Mike the atheist was getting more and more frustrated.

Apologies for audio being bad for the first 3.5 minutes.

Presuppositional Apologetics on the Street Part 1:

Presuppositional Apologetics on the Street Part 2:

Presuppositional Apologetics on the Street Part 3:

Presuppositional Apologetics on the Street Part 4:

Presuppositional Apologetics on the Street Part 5:

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Leave31 Responses to testAttacking the Atheists Foundation on the streets

  1. Mike Ayala September 20, 2010 at 7:18 am #

    Hey Eric,

    This is great. I look foward to watching them all. I can see that if a few dozen of these are done by various Christians, clips could be edited and compiled to make a sort of topical real time evangelism tutorial.

    Might I ad one suggestion: without the Holy Spirit working in the heart and mind of the atheist, ones efforts might be likened to planting seeds in sun-baked clay. We also need the Spirit to come upon us that we might be witnesses to Jesus. The bottom line is prayer and intercession with a good helping of studying to show ourselves approved before God that we might be ready to give an answer to anybody for the hope we have in Christ.

    God bless you all.

    Mike Ayala

  2. Gary Hendricks September 20, 2010 at 11:29 am #

    “God commands us to close the mouths of unbelievers.”

    Really Eric? Oh and BTW – It is PRECISELY your assumptions that I do challenge. Well…the quality of your “evidence” is extremely poor as well…but this is simply the result of trying to manufacture evidence to prove a predetermined and faulty assumption rather than honestly evaluate the evidence.

  3. Mike Ayala September 20, 2010 at 4:03 pm #

    Hi Gary,

    We’ve yet to see you point to anything that amounts to evidence. Your challenge is not much of a challenge.

    Can you point to something that might support any of your allegations? Do you have anything that will stand up to the slightest scrutiny? Your unsubstiantiated statements are sticking out kind of like a sore thumb.

    Mike Ayala

  4. Nigel McNaughton September 20, 2010 at 6:09 pm #

    I might have been interested in watching it if it wasn’t Chad.

    For anyone who does watch it, does Chad explain how he knows his mind is functioning without error “with certainty”, and how he distinguishes a real revelation from a false revelation when his deity could make him believe either is true?

  5. Gary Hendricks September 20, 2010 at 9:55 pm #

    Oh and Mike, from your last dodge of my post you stated this…

    “Like so many others, please do not put words into my mouth. It is very unhygienic and not very polite. I did not say “that God ever stated that the age of “creation is in the range of thousands of years old, not billions”.” I do not know if that is your intention to misrepresent my statements or if your passion is getting in the way of your reading comprehension.”

    And yet this is a direct quote from your previous post. (As if you thought no one would actually go and check…LOL)

    “As far as the age of the universe goes with reference to God, the God who claims that He made the universe reveals to us through His word that the creation is in the range of thousands of years old, not billions.”

    Seriously Mike…is honesty and integrity beyond you?? You even lie about your own words when presented with them. Why would any other “evidence” have any sway to your clouded mind?

  6. Gary Hendricks September 20, 2010 at 9:43 pm #

    Oh come on Mike. There have been an extremely large number of evidences given concerning the dishonesty of the supposed science presented on this forum by very knowledgeable people. None of that matters to you or the Hovinds as you simply continue to declare that the Earth is flat. (or some other equally silly notions)

    My point is one of principle rather than science and clearly you choose to dodge it just as dishonestly as you do the questions of science. That is the only “sore thumb” in this discussion.

  7. Jack Napper September 20, 2010 at 11:59 pm #

    “After watching the “Proving God” series on http://www.drdino.com, Chad got the book The Ultimate Proof by Dr. Jason Lisle and read it in one day! Within two months of studying how the atheist really thinks and what God says about that, Chad had an opportunity to put his study into practice on the streets against an atheist. By the end of the conversation, God had used Chad to “close the mouth” of the unbeliever and show him exactly what is necessary for salvation.”

    Unlike Lisle who actually seems like a nice guy but easily defeated you present us with Sye and Chad? Not only that but you use the “man on the street” fallacy to present this latest tool.

    I love presuppers as they violate the very absolute laws of logic the profess. It’s really funny to watch them violate the very absolute laws of logic and destroy their own argument with their own argument.

    To say that absolutes come from God makes them…NOT ABSOLUTE.

    I really love the false dichotomy of the presupper argument that Eris is spewing. Hey Eric, even if you get someone to admit that they are completely and utterly wrong it doesn’t make you right. You have to show why you are right. Of this is like asking for the moon as it simply leads to another logic fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. Of course me pointing that out leads to someone asking me “how do you know it shift blah blah blah”, which again makes me laugh as it means they’ve shot more holes in their own argument.

  8. Duane September 21, 2010 at 4:35 am #

    This is what you get when two people who have no idea what they are talking about get together and talk about things beyond their understanding.

    The atheist is insufferably pedantic and confused in his argument, as is the evangelist. The atheist could have conceded the logic question on contradiction to let the guy get to his point instead of dragging it out. Schrudinger’s cat is a thought experiment placing real life objects in place of quantum mechanical observations. It’s not meant to be taken literally on the level of an actual cat. It’s so we can wrap our heads around the bizarre nature of quantum physics. So the guy gets caught in an error while trying to avoid the evangelist’s (potential) word trap. Science does make the assumption of the conformity of nature, e.i. reality, based upon our observations. That’s not a “Christian” concept. If anything, it’s something rejected by YEC who assume that light traveled faster in the past than it does now, when that would have other repercussions since the speed of light is tied to the rest of physics, such as the amount of energy that makes up matter.

    Anyway, about contradictions. If one were to concede for the sake of argument (that is, leaving out quantum mechanics and sticking to the natural world that we can experience) that there is a law of contradictions. It is NOT accounted for in the Christian worldview. You are saying that God forbids contradictions because that would be God lying, in essence. That presupposes the existence of God. Couldn’t just the nature of reality be enough? It’s introducing God for no reason.

    The other weird thing is the absolutes argument. He was trying to trick him on a fallacy. Some absolutes are the nature of reality, some are not actually absolutes but just human constructs. For instance, that $20 bill is either in his wallet or not. I’ll grant on the level of reality we experience (that is, forgetting about quantum stuff), it is so. Then the evangelist tried to say that raping a child is an absolute. Um, no. No it isn’t. It has nothing to do with absolutes. It is a human construct because rape implies a reason or motive for an event. It’s an apples and oranges argument. The Apples to apples would be, “Is there a $20 dollar bill in my wallet?” to “Was a sexual act performed on a child?” Those can be considered on the level of absolutes. Either they happened or did not. To bring rape into it, then we must compare oranges to oranges. How did that $20 get in my wallet? Did I earn it or did I steal it? The sexual act on that child. Was it rape or was it actually a young marriage? Loretta Lynn was married and having babies at 13. That is not considered rape. It is a trick argument designed to make the other person look bad (“You don’t believe in absolutes? You think child rape is not absolutely wrong?”) but is based upon a flawed premise.

    There was something else brought up. The idea that the atheist has no morals and is free to do as he wishes in the atheist worldview. Umm, no. Morality is a human construct. Do you like getting killed or your stuff taken? No? Why do you think it takes some supernatural being to tell you this? Atheists get in the same trouble as believers if they break the law. There’s nothing magical that prevents thieves, killers and rapists from doing what they do. And they get punished, if caught. I don’t have some elaborate wish fulfillment fantasy that I imagine catches up to people after they are dead and you only have the assertion that you do. No one has ever come back to let us know for sure. The fact that prison is populated almost entirely with believers of one sort or another while atheists make up less than 1% shows that Atheism does not lead to moral impropriety. Believers are the ones who seem to fantasize about raping and pillaging but are held back by their imaginary daddy.

    If anything, I’d argue the believers don’t believe in absolutes. Do you believe your neighbor should be put to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath? How about stoning disobedient children? Should rapists buy their victims as wives? How do you feel about cheeseburgers or lobster dinners? Would you kill your child because a voice in your head said to? Your morality comes from the same place as mine. You don’t follow Biblical morality, you cherry pick the stuff you agree with out of it, which is essentially the same as choosing your own morality.

    Does anyone else get the extreme irony of this site in particular of trying to teach us about morality?

  9. Stephen Holshouser September 21, 2010 at 9:25 am #

    Nigel,

    You should have watched it. No one’s mind perfectly functions without error, but it is obvious Chad’s is functioning better than most. In the real world, normal people don’t question whether or not their senses/mind are deceiving them… do you live like that? It is altogether a different issue if you believe an error. Some people who have well functioning minds (Stephen Hawking) believe errors. I’m sure all of us believe some things that are in error.. Do you? What is your standard to know whether your belief is error or not?

    The Lord has never given anyone reason to distrust what He has plainly said. His Word is true; the consequences and benefits to following it are evident in this life. The natural laws He has created are dependable; They work the same today as they did yesterday… YOU depend on them every day. You are correct, though, we are at the mercy of the Most High to reveal the truth to us, especially since there are thousands of different ways that lead to destruction and only one straight and narrow way that leads to eternal life. Do you really think that if you acknowledged your dependence on Him that He would deceive you? Do you really think that if you turned from your sin and self-rule and recognized and confessed to Him that it is only through His Son Jesus Christ’s merits that you could be saved that He would reject you and ultimately cast you away? Nigel, you have nothing worthwhile to lose by trusting Him and everything to gain. Your only other option is to disbelieve and distrust the moral and natural Law Giver, and what would that gain you? Proverbs 3:5-7

  10. Julie Collins September 21, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    “why are you here?”
    “because i am bored… hahaha!”

    ok…? this guy does not seem very smart. i understand all of this, and i know seem to understand

    “in binary 1+1=10″ yeah, who cares? now find a new way where 1+1=2…

    parallel worlds is…well… stupid… as all science today is now whether or not mathematics can prove something with no other evidence for it… like parallel universes, the creation of the universe, radiometric dating.

    my responses to other comments

    “I really love the false dichotomy of the presupper argument that Eris is spewing. Hey Eric, even if you get someone to admit that they are completely and utterly wrong it doesn’t make you right.”

    and of course jack, it also does not make YOU right either.

    “Really Eric? Oh and BTW… It is PRECISELY your assumptions that I do challenge. Well, the quality of your “evidence” is extremely poor as well, but this is simply the result of trying to manufacture evidence to prove a predetermined and faulty assumption rather than honestly evaluate the evidence.”

    speaking of quality of evidence, i see you have none Gary.

    “For anyone who does watch it, does Chad explain how he knows his mind is functioning without error “with certainty”, and how he distinguishes a real revelation from a false revelation when his deity could make him believe either is true?”

    atheist believe their brain is a mix of chemicals bound together by billions of freak accidents. i think i would trust the deity more.

  11. Gary Hendricks September 21, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    Hi Julie, nice to meet you,

    However, just like your friend Mike, evidence is of no interest to you. You simply continue to state that it is wrong. Welcome to the flat Earth society. Look them up…yes they do still exist. They, like you, have all the biblical evidence they need to “prove” that the Earth really is flat.

    My point in these discussions is philosophical not scientific. (I leave that to those who have contributed far better than I could) I am dealing with the principle of Christian integrity. Unfortunately I see none of that represented here. Our mission, our calling, is to proclaim the Gospel. Your mission seems to be to attack and demonize everyone who does not agree with your silly interpretations of scripture. Just like Calvin, Luther, and many other very sincere believers in the past, you are placing your understanding of scripture on the same level as scripture itself and that is tragically wrong and destructive to the gospel. You want to serve God? Start by humbling yourself enough to understand that you may have made a mistake about the nature of the created universe, and let God have the glory for His creation regardless of what and how we may discover it.

    And as for Mike…I thin he needs more Jesus in his life.

    • CSE September 21, 2010 at 8:58 pm #

      Just to point out something: Mr. Gary has just proclaimed himself to be more righteous, and of greater integrity, than Martin Luther (founder of the Protestant Reformation) and John Calvin (along with Luther, who are two of the most influential people on Christian theology since the Scriptures were written – and the reason why he can even read them in the first place)… All of this after he continues to aim insults at us and proclaim that we lack integrity and character.

      Just an observation.

  12. Stephen Holshouser September 21, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    Duane,

    “If anything, it’s something rejected by YEC who assume that light traveled faster in the past than it does now,”

    Is the speed of light a constant or a law? Have you seen the studies where they speed it up and slow it down with no obvious “repercussions?”

    “There was something else brought up. The idea that the atheist has no morals and is free to do as he wishes in the atheist worldview. Umm, no. Morality is a human construct. Do you like getting killed or your stuff taken? No? Why do you think it takes some supernatural being to tell you this? Atheists get in the same trouble as believers if they break the law. There’s nothing magical that prevents thieves, killers and rapists from doing what they do…. The fact that prison is populated almost entirely with believers of one sort or another while atheists make up less than 1% shows that Atheism does not lead to moral impropriety…”

    Is the only thing restraining you and other atheists the thought of getting caught by the authorities? Do you not have a conscience that says to you “you know this is not right,” regardless of whether you could ever get caught or not? If you have a conscience that tells you right from wrong, even when no person could ever find out what you’ve done, how did a mere “human construct” like that get hard-wired into you? If you have or will ever have kids, what will you teach them? “Son, anything goes, just don’t get caught.” Do you see where that would lead?

    Do you think there is a low percentage of atheists in prison because there is a low percentage of them in the general population? Probably 98% (I do know some true believers in there) of the “believers” in prison are false-professors(1 John 2:4). The Bible is clear that there are and will be many false professing believers. That doesn’t mean there aren’t many true, practicing believers. Also, I’m sure there are probably many nice atheists that aren’t vile sinners by societies standards, but it is not man that you ultimately have to please.

    “Do you believe your neighbor should be put to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath? How about stoning disobedient children? Should rapists buy their victims as wives? How do you feel about cheeseburgers or lobster dinners? Would you kill your child because a voice in your head said to? Your morality comes from the same place as mine. You don’t follow Biblical morality, you cherry pick the stuff you agree with out of it, which is essentially the same as choosing your own morality.”

    It is you that has “cherry-picked” from the Bible here. If you take the Bible as a whole as it is meant to be taken, no New Testament Christian would ever practice these Old Testament rules given specifically to the Nation of Israel that have come to an end. btw- You are not saying that the rules in the Old Testament are morally wrong, are you?

    Isaiah ch.53

  13. Mike Ayala September 21, 2010 at 5:46 pm #

    September 20th at 9:43 pm

    Hi Gary,

    You appear to like to use the words sidestep and dodge, but those words cannot apply as you used them because you have not said anything of substance to sidestep or dodge. In reality, what you have done is sidestepped and dodged every request for evidence of evolution that will stand the test of scrutiny or substantiation for any of your baseless statements and allegations. You have no evidence, and instead you expect me and others to accept your philosophizing as evidence.

    I asked you, (not someone else), to point to something that might support any of your, (not someone else’s) allegations. You still have not done so. They are your baseless unsubstantiated allegations, not somebody else’s.

    I asked if you had anything that would stand up to the slightest scrutiny. What you call “an extremely large number of evidences given concerning the dishonesty of the supposed science presented on this forum” is no evidence at all. So far no one has provided any evidence whatsoever to support evolution. What is given as evidence does not pass the slightest scrutiny, and when it is examined, it reveals how bankrupt the whole evolutionary house of cards is. Evolution’s foundation is based on the fatal flaw of Darwin extrapolating unlimited change from observed limited change. The whole evolutionary house comes crashing down on that one fatal error alone. I was hoping that you might have something of substance to offer instead of more baseless unsubstantiated allegations and aspersions.

    September 20th at 9:55 pm

    Gary, your 9:55 pm post confirms what I said before: either you are intentionally misrepresenting my words or your passion, misguided passion at that, is getting in the way of your reading comprehension. I would hope it is the latter, but it does not appear to be so.

    Gary, this is not all a waste of time because you have given us all a perfect opportunity to examine once again what confounded evolutionists do when they have no evidence to support their baseless unsubstantiated statements. They follow in the footsteps of the Devil who:

    1. Casts doubt on the word of God,

    2. Lies directly

    3. And when all else fails, attempts to discredit the messenger through character assassination. If the Devil and evolutionists cannot win the argument, and they cannot, then they try to marginalize the person to sabotage the ministry and to render the effective argument less effective.

    Gary, my original post was this:

    “As far as the age of the universe goes with reference to God, the God who claims that He made the universe reveals to us through His word that the creation is in the range of thousands of years old, not billions.”

    What you wrote was this:

    “I absolutely and categorically disagree with you that God ever stated that the age of “creation is in the range of thousands of years old, not billions”.”

    You added something that was not true. You made an untrue statement saying that I said “that God ever stated”. Recognizing your error laced with malice, I corrected you and clarified the point so you could not misunderstand:

    _____________________________________________________

    (Quoted from Eric’s Blog Everything came from “NOTHING”? September 19th at 6:28 pm

    -

    By your reckoning what did God say in His word that was in contradiction to what I wrote? I actually said “He revealed”. He put it in such a way that no one could corrupt it. You are trying to corrupt it. Doing so makes manifest that you have not accepted what He has revealed about the age of the earth and creation. You either have not read it, or you have been so biased that you cannot accept the plain language facts of the Scripture the same way that Darwin could not accept the obvious plain evidence before him at San Sebastian, Santa Cruz River Valley, and Concepcion. Darwin’s conclusions are so wrong that his geological career is an embarrassment to informed evolutionists and the field of geology in general.

    Genesis Chapter 1 has a waw-consecutive at the beginning of each of the verses showing a continuity right through from day one to day six. We are provided the ages of the patriarchs from Adam to Noah and each one’s age at the time of the next son in the genealogy in Genesis Chapter 5. The continuity of the genealogy continues in Genesis Chapter 11 with Shem to Abraham. Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born. Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born. Jacob live to be 147. The time from Jacob to today is roughly about 3500 -3700 years.

    Why do you think the Lord included the ages of each person in the early genealogy? I suggest to you the Lord did it to confound those who would later come and distort the word of God teaching an old age of the earth and creation.

    -
    __________________________________________________________

    The direct quote from my previous post you reprinted above contains your untrue twist to my original quote. You even placed my original quote without your untrue twist near enough side by side. Now, either you are trying to fool everybody with smoke and mirrors without the smoke and mirrors, or reading with comprehension is a severe challenge for you. I even gave you an extremely brief Bible study demonstrating the continuity from Genesis 1:1 to the present time being revealed by God as a matter of thousands of years according to the word of God thus substantiating my original point.

    Now, Gary, you make the error, you hide the truth, and in your self-righteous prideful indignation you want to make a big deal about it and call me a liar? Gary, you’ve done what frustrated and confounded evolutionists do: take a little bit of truth and twist it and extrapolate it beyond recognition.

    Remember, as I told you before: Twisting the truth never changes the truth. It only reveals the liar.

    Because you have no evidence to offer, you have to manufacture some fake problem to divert attention away from the real issue: Evolution has no evidence to support it that will stand up to any scrutiny because evolution is a lie.

    The foundation of evolution is based on a lie. The arguments in favor of evolution are based on lies. Your unsubstantiated statements are based on lies. Your allegations and aspersions are based on lies. And none of it stands up to the slightest scrutiny. You have no evidence, and what you and other evolutionists provide as evidence for evolution is either philosophy or no evidence at all and crumbles under examination.

    Although we should not shout at the darkness, it is important that we turn on the light of the word of God that He might make manifest the truth.

    The lies of atheists and evolutionists flourish when they remain unchallenged. Let all who love the truth confront and expose their lies.

    Grace and blessings to you all.

    Mike Ayala

  14. Nigel McNaughton September 21, 2010 at 7:30 pm #

    Stephen, seriously I have had multiple run ins with Chad, he’s douche-bag of the highest order. From other comments it seems not watching it was the right decision. My main point which you seemed to skip over entirely is that you don’t know if you are being deceived on some level it makes things a bit messy.

  15. Mike Ayala September 22, 2010 at 5:43 am #

    September 21st at 2:37 pm

    Hi again, Gary,

    Your philosophizing is about as valuable in determining and understanding the truth of reality as bringing week-old kittens into a kindergarten class asking the children to vote weather the kittens are male or female. Such discussion is worthless, irrelevant, and misleading and even more so without honest objective consideration of the facts. You effectively admit you are not concerned about the facts of creation, in practice you cannot provide any verifiable facts to support your claims contrary to creation, and you reject any facts contrary to what you believe and your understanding of how the creation and life came into being.

    Moreover, you do not acknowledge your errors, but rather, you cast aspersions and baseless allegations as if you are the only arbiter of truth hoping that your aggressive rudeness will hide your inadequacies.

    Gary, your presence in your last several posts is as a propagandist and not as a participant in an intelligent informed discussion.

    The only reason why I even bother to mention any of this is for a learning example for all who follow and participate in the discussions on this site so that they become better equipped to challenge the lies of evolution and recognize the tactics of the Devil. Your behavior is classic textbook typical evolutionist behavior.

    -

    Gary, your pride and arrogance and rejection of the word of God make you about as ideal a candidate for preaching the Gospel as the slave girl of Acts 16 before Paul interceded for her.

    The primary Christian mission and calling is to believe, trust, and obey God at His word. (Interesting note: The Lord also calls the Circumcision and the Nations by the same standard – He wants all to hear and obey His voice.) Everything after hearing God’s voice, believing His word, and trusting and obeying His voice is the fruit of the Lord working in one’s life; Everything else is the fruit of a life in Christ living in the power of His Holy Spirit of truth.

    The evidence of a life in Christ is love and humility.

    And yes, Gary, I also think I need more of Jesus in my life. In fact, one of my favorite songs is a prayer to Jesus set to music:

    -

    Gm
    More love,
    EbMaj7
    More power,
    Dm7 Gm – F – Gm
    More of You in my Life, (2X)

    -
    Cm Gm
    And I will worship You with all of my heart,
    Cm Gm
    And I will worship You with all of my mind,
    Cm Gm
    And I will worship You with all of my strength,
    EbMaj7 – Dm7
    For You are my Lord.
    Gm
    You are my Lord.

    -

    I pray for more of Jesus in everyone’s life.

    Grace to you all.

    Mike Ayala

  16. Gary Hendricks September 22, 2010 at 6:47 am #

    “People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool [or 'man'] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.”
    - Martin Luther

    “Those who assert that “the earth moves and turns” [are] motivated by spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and fault finding; possessed by the devil, they aimed to pervert the order of nature.”
    - John Calvin

    The moment you begin to believe that you have a perfect understanding of the scriptures and use it as a weapon of attack on all who would, in genuine sincerity, believe you might not be representing them accurately…then yes…you have lost your integrity. This is true whether your name be Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mike Ayala, Eric Hovind, or Kent Hovind.

    Luther and Calvin were undeniably great men of tremendous faith. But they serve as a stark reminder of the danger of placing our own understanding on the same level as God Himself.

    You now state that I have “just proclaimed” myself “to be more righteous, and of greater integrity” than Luther and Calvin. There is no truth in this statement of any kind. It is a lie that only seeks to destroy those who disagree. I am ashamed that this deception comes from an organization that professes to be Christian. What I did was illustrate that even great men of faith can be wrong in their understanding of the scriptures…nothing more.

    What is funny (in an ironic sort of way) is the similarity between the way Calvin referred to those who believed differently than he did as being “possessed by the devil” and the way Mike just accused me of following in the “footsteps of the Devil”.

    Why have I chosen NOT to enter into the scientific debate? Clearly it is pointless to debate such things with closed minds. My purpose in posting is to attack the heresy of believing one has perfect understanding of the scriptures.

  17. Duane September 22, 2010 at 7:44 am #

    “Is the only thing restraining you and other atheists the thought of getting caught by the authorities? Do you not have a conscience that says to you “you know this is not right,” regardless of whether you could ever get caught or not? If you have a conscience that tells you right from wrong, even when no person could ever find out what you’ve done, how did a mere “human construct” like that get hard-wired into you? If you have or will ever have kids, what will you teach them? “Son, anything goes, just don’t get caught.” Do you see where that would lead?”

    Please don’t put words in my mouth, especially ones opposite of what I have posted in this blog. Believers seem to be the only ones who thinks anything goes but for eyes being upon them. Have you ever had to have your child return a candy bar to the store that he had stolen to teach him a lesson? Have you ever had to stop your child from hitting another child or the dog? You either teach the child outright or in some cases you reason with the child by appealing to his empathy. If knowing right from wrong is hardwired then we wouldn’t need to teach it. Plus, if you want to attribute it to God, then shouldn’t it fail less often, or does God do substandard work?

    “Do you think there is a low percentage of atheists in prison because there is a low percentage of them in the general population? Probably 98% (I do know some true believers in there) of the “believers” in prison are false-professors(1 John 2:4). The Bible is clear that there are and will be many false professing believers. That doesn’t mean there aren’t many true, practicing believers. Also, I’m sure there are probably many nice atheists that aren’t vile sinners by societies standards, but it is not man that you ultimately have to please.”

    You are seriously going to use the No True Scotman argument? Face it, a belief in God is not enough to keep someone from committing a crime and atheists are seriously under-represented in prison as a proportion of the population. If it is going to be claimed that atheism is dangerous to society, you better have the numbers to back it up, because I can find lots of numbers indicating the exact opposite. Look at the crime rates and teen pregnancy rates of countries like the Scandanavian ones compared to the Bible Belt.

    The only danger atheism causes is to the coffers of the churches.

  18. Andrew @EC September 22, 2010 at 9:40 am #

    I find it fairly astonishing that anyone could think that the smug, arrogant, obnoxious, interrupting, script-reading Chad is any sort of positive witness for Christianity.

    Presuppositional apologetics rests upon a single premise: if I get to ask the questions, eventually I can get to things you don’t know. That doesn’t prove anything other than it’s better to ask questions than answer them. (Socrates had that figured out 2500 years ago.)

  19. Stephen Holshouser September 22, 2010 at 1:17 pm #

    Nigel, “My main point which you seemed to skip over entirely is that you don’t know if you are being deceived on some level it makes things a bit messy.”
    You almost agree with the Bible here. Titus 3:3-7 (emphasis on the first verse) take care sir

  20. Julie Collins September 22, 2010 at 1:46 pm #

    “However, just like your friend Mike, evidence is of no interest to you. You simply continue to state that it is wrong. Welcome to the flat Earth society. Look them up, yes they do still exist.”

    and your data is where? refuted? oh, i thought so. years and years ago to be exact. like all your kind, you have a probelem with disconnecting science and reality from your magical world of “wecamefromarocksoup”.

    “Just like Calvin, Luther, and many other very sincere believers in the past, you are placing your understanding of scripture on the same level as scripture itself and that is tragically wrong and destructive to the gospel.”

    whos gosple? mine or yours? because i never said i even followed the bible… yet you make the assumption that i do because that is what your kind does. blindly follow a very few choice of scienctist. most of which are wrong. and have been wrong for 50 years or more. and you follow them without thinking for yourself.

    a REAL SCIENTIFIC look at common ancestry, abiogenesis, the big bang, nuclear fusion, ect, ect, ect. shows that they are made by assumptions, not science (observable and testable and demonstrative) and these assumptions make up the theories, which back up these theories. many of these theories are not even backed up by scientific fact.

  21. David McCrea September 22, 2010 at 6:23 pm #

    Some posters have stated their undying support for Darwin and his theory regardless if Darwin was a racist woman-hater (among other things). They claim his personal beliefs, being what they were, toward his fellow human beings matter not at all as to the validity and/or authenticity of his theory.

    My question is, and it’s only a question, was Darwin a racist woman-hater BEFORE he proffered his theory or did he become a racist woman-hater AFTER he proffered his theory?

    Because if Darwin was a racist woman-hater BEFORE he proffered his theory, then isn’t it possible his personal bias could have crept into and corrupted his observations and subsequent conclusions? Even a little bit?

    Darwin took his deepest and darkest thoughts with him to the grave, but IF he had some “issues” with his fellow humanity, then technically wouldn’t his “theory” be more like a self-fulfilling prophecy?

    Did his bias drive his theory or did his theory drive his bias? Because like it or not, the man was an unapologetic racist and a woman-hater.

    Maybe the theory of evolution by means of natural selection is true. Maybe not. But what I will never understand is the degree of hero worship that surrounds Darwin the man. Unless that hero worship has something to do with using Darwin’s theory to justify and/or otherwise excuse sin. That I can understand.

  22. David McCrea September 23, 2010 at 1:56 am #

    I read Gary’s comments carefully and he’s right. Martin Luther may have been the father of the reformation, but he got some things very, very wrong scripturally. Infant baptism is one of his worst misinterpretations. But where he really goes off the rails is his hatred of the Jews. He openly advocated murdering Jews wherever they were found. They were lowly Christ-killers.

    Hitler was a very selective reader, or at least he was very selective in his interpretations. One thing is for sure. He loved the antisemitism of Luther and used it to fuel his own antisemitism.

    Our Savior is a Jew. I’ll never understand how some can love the Savior while hating the Jewish people.

  23. Nigel McNaughton September 23, 2010 at 3:28 pm #

    David McCrea, I guarentee that the amount of “Hero Worship” around Darwin simply wouldn’t exist if you didn’t have dishonest people like Julie constantly lying and demonizing him. He gets elevated because people have to defend him from blatant untruths like ‘He recanted on his deathbed!’

    It’s quite simply this, can you show that Darwin was any more or less racist than the average Victorian Man? Heck he was quite possibly less racist than Abraham Lincoln.

    Darwin didn’t invent Evolution, he developed the idea of Natural Selection, and Alfred Wallace was right on his heels. And since he’s not a religious icon as much as Creationists often try to make him one, people are quite free to point out where he was wrong.

  24. Mike Ayala September 23, 2010 at 5:51 pm #

    Gary,

    This is directly to you as well as for others to observe and learn.

    Let’s examine what has so upset you:

    “Gary, this is not all a waste of time because you have given us all a perfect opportunity to examine once again what confounded evolutionists do when they have no evidence to support their baseless unsubstantiated statements. They follow in the footsteps of the Devil who:

    1. Casts doubt on the word of God,

    2. Lies directly

    3. And when all else fails, attempts to discredit the messenger through character assassination. If the Devil and evolutionists cannot win the argument, and they cannot, then they try to marginalize the person to sabotage the ministry and to render the effective argument less effective.”

    Well, Gary, we’ve all seen how you in your recent posts:

    1. Cast doubt on the word of God;

    2. Lie;

    3. Attempt character assassination through malicious assertions, baseless allegations, and spurious aspersions.

    Let us see what the Bible, our authority for all things in faith and practice, would have us do.

    -

    1 John 4:1 teaches us:

    “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether the are of God; because many false prophet have gone out into the world.”

    So Gary, we test what you say because the Scripture says that folks will come claiming to be of God but are not. When tested, we see glaring inconsistencies between what you say and what God says in His word. On that basis alone we ought not to believe you.

    But wait, there’s more.

    -

    Matthew 7:15-20

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

    You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?

    Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

    A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

    Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

    Again we are warned that folks will come having a veneer of Christianity as a cloak to hide what is really in their hearts. However, Jesus tells us how to identify these folks – examine their fruit! Well, our Lord told us that out of the mouth (and through posts by extension) proceeds the abundance of one’s heart – the fruit of one’s lips. Jesus also tells us how to determine the state of one by one’s fruit:

    “Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?

    Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

    A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.”

    Gary, your fruit is not good.

    -

    1 Corinthians 2:9-16

    [From verse 9 for continuity sake]

    Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
    Nor have entered into the heart of man
    The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.

    But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

    For what man know the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

    Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

    These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

    For “Who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

    Gary, you reject the word of God at face value effectively calling God a liar. That is a dangerous position in which to be. We are called to judge these things, but you cry foul when we obey the word of God and judge the bad fruit evident in your posts. However, we understand why because we have the mind of Christ.

    -

    The difference between you and the normal evolutionist is you claim the word of God supports your belief that the earth and creation are billions of years old. You fall into the category of folks called theistic evolutionists. The major difference is you attempt to poison the word of God in the minds of anybody who might listen to you. Of course, you do not support anything you say with any evidence, for there is no evidence in the Scripture to which you can point. If you could have you would have, but it’s not there, so you can’t, and you didn’t.

    Gary, if you cast doubt on the word of God; If you lie; If you attempt character assassination through malicious assertions and baseless allegations, well, what are we to conclude?

    Gary, when we test, when we inspect the fruit of your heart, yes we see you walking in the footsteps of the Devil.

    Do you have a problem with that? If so,

    1. It’s your problem
    2. Your problem is with the Word of God.

    I and everybody else who respects the word of God are only doing what we are taught by the word of God to do when we judge the bad fruit that comes from you.

    -

    One of your baseless allegations is that we are placing our own understanding on the same level as God Himself. No, Gary, we are just obeying the word of God, and we are believing the word of God at face value.

    If you had genuine sincerity as you said, you would be willing to examine the evidence and put forth evidence to back up your statements.

    If you had genuine sincerity, you would have refrained from childish maliciousness, the disrespectful accusations, and the baseless allegations and spurious aspersions. Rather, these are all you had to offer instead of intelligent informed discussion based on evidence and established, tested, and scrutinized facts.

    Your point was in principle you said, but you hadn’t made any point other than earlier making an unfounded untested scientific statement without supporting evidence:

    “Now if I could just get you guys to stop proclaiming that those of us who believe in a Universe billions of years old are atheists too. There are many respected scientists who believe in God and yet accept what is undeniable and clear scientific discovery. No matter how many time you proclaim otherwise, there really is no contradiction.”

    We know that people who believe in evolution believe in different gods, that is why my question to you was in which God do you believe and an exhortation to, “Please be careful about making dogmatic unsupported statements like, “what is undeniable and clear scientific discovery.”

    That obviously hit a raw nerve because you have not stopped making baseless allegations, spurious aspersions, grandstand shows of foolish righteous indignation, misrepresentations of God’s word, contradictions of God’s word, all the while rejecting the supporting evidence of those who point to the errors of your flawed reasoning while you are unable to offer or point to any evidence that will stand any scrutiny that will support your scientific statement.

    Furthermore, you claim you have “chosen NOT to enter into the scientific debate” because your “purpose in posting is to attack the heresy of believing one has perfect understanding of the scriptures.” Your hypocrisy in that statement is that which you claim others are doing is exactly what you are doing yourself.

    My point in these discussions is philosophical not scientific. (I leave that to those who have contributed far better than I could) I am dealing with the principle of Christian integrity.

    It is strange that in more than one place you try to duck the issue claiming not to speak about scientific things, yet your reaction to my statement that “creation is in the range of thousands of years old, not billions” was that my statement “is an interpretation of the Genesis account that is purely based on your understanding, which also happens to disagree with the facts.”

    What hypocrisy that is, Gary! When challenged, it appears you have no facts to present, no evidence, nothing at all despite being repeatedly asked to present any evidence to support your dogmatic and unsupported statement that will stand the test of scrutiny.

    You make statements that have scientific implications, but you make no effort to substantiate them. That’s called propaganda. Then you want those unsubstantiated statements to stand as fact. We who examine the evidence reject propaganda as evidence – no matter how sincere you are about it.

    -

    What tells all is that you believe there really is no contradiction between believing in God and what God has written in His word about the age of the earth and creation and believing in an old earth and creation:

    For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

    Moreover, you cannot recognize the incompatibility of evolution and the word of God – that which is and has been recognized by evolutionists since Darwin’s day. In fact, one of Darwin’s primary motivations for proposing his evolutionary thoughts was precisely to remove the need for God in creation.

    So are you saying in effect that Darwin was wrong? You’re a fence sitter, neither here nor there and confused.

    -

    Gary, stating that you are walking in the footsteps of the Devil is not so much an accusation but rather an observation that you have manifested what you are by the fruit of your heart which you posted. It’s all a matter of record. The Word of God gives us discernment that we might judge truth from error. We have the absolute standard of the word of God that we may measure all we hear or see against it. In this case, you have done exactly what the Serpent of old did in Genesis Chapter Three:

    “Has God indeed said, “You shall not eat of every tree of the garden”?” (Casting doubt on the word of God)

    “You will not surely die.” (The lie)

    “For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (impugning God’s character)

    This is basic Christian doctrine. The Lord has revealed to us in this passage the tactics and method of the Devil. It is beyond coincidence that these are the same tactics you use in your posts. Based on the above evidences from your posts, the observation that you are walking in the footsteps of the Devil is an accurate assessment.

    -

    The bottom line is you believe the creation and the earth are billions of years old, but you cannot point to any evidence to support your belief that will stand up to the slightest scrutiny. All the noise you make is nothing more than a diversionary tactic in attempt to escape accountability for your own statements. Sadly, you also chose to employ chronic abuse through insult, aspersions, and unfounded accusations which again are diversionary tactics to hide how bankrupt of evidence is your position of believing in evolution and an old age of the earth and creation.

    -

    I pray that being aware of and recognizing the tactics of the Devil will help us all better attack the foundations of atheism and evolutionary dogma that lost souls might be saved as if being plucked from the fire.

    God bless you all.

    Mike Ayala

  25. Julie Collins September 23, 2010 at 5:22 pm #

    “Maybe the theory of evolution by means of natural selection is true. Maybe not. But what I will never understand is the degree of hero worship that surrounds Darwin the man.”

    do not forget richard dawkins and eugene scott as well.

  26. Jack Napper September 23, 2010 at 10:40 pm #

    “Because if Darwin was a racist woman-hater BEFORE he proffered his theory, then isn’t it possible his personal bias could have crept into and corrupted his observations and subsequent conclusions? Even a little bit?”

    WOW!!!!

    You’re not beating a dead horse. At this point it’s a fossil.

    If you bothered to read Darwin’s writings you would know that he wrote extensively against slavery and shuttered to think what many did in the name of a “white man’s burden”. If you don’t know that term I suggest you look it up. The rest of your nonsense is as much of a crock as Darwin recanting his theory of NATURAL SELECTION on his death bed.

  27. Duane September 24, 2010 at 9:04 am #

    Who cares about Darwin? We don’t worship him. Please understand that you are projecting. Evolution has nothing to do with racism or woman hating. Your Bible has plenty of both, by the way. Evolution is not a religion. Atheists don’t worship “nothing”. Atheists don’t commit sins, either. Not a one.

  28. Gary Hendricks September 24, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

    Wow Mike…I certainly seem to have gotten your attention. your rambling book directed at me is quite to work…fiction…but a real effort none the less. You have entered the realm of incoherent babble though so I am pretty much through attempting to have any productive dialog with you.

    “The bottom line is you believe the creation and the earth are billions of years old, but you cannot point to any evidence to support your belief that will stand up to the slightest scrutiny. All the noise you make is nothing more than a diversionary tactic in attempt to escape accountability for your own statements.”

    Am I the only one who sees the incredible irony in this quote???
    LOL

  29. Duane September 24, 2010 at 10:52 pm #

    “Am I the only one who sees the incredible irony in this quote???
    LOL”

    They are on Kent Hovind’s site, so how discerning can their information gathering be? Kent, with his scary Bible school degree that gives him qualifications in Paleontology, Geology, Biology, Astronomy, and medicine, has done all the research.

  30. Mike Ayala September 25, 2010 at 5:28 am #

    Hey Duane,

    You don’t worship at Darwin’s alter?

    Really?

    Do you reject Darwin’s idea that natural selection is unlimited in what it can do?

    Do you reject Darwin’s idea that a little change over a little time can be extrapolated to a lot of change over a lot of time?

    Do you reject Darwin’s idea that natural selection can author a radical transformation of life from one form to another?

    Do you reject Darwin’s idea that life can morph regardless of it’s internal genetic specifications?

    Do you reject Darwin’s idea that mutations are variation rather than damage of genetic code?

    Do you reject Darwin’s idea that mutations are the fundamental factor of life, the raw material of evolution rather than the primary source of human suffering through disease: the primary basis for cancer, aging, miscarriages, birth defects and genetic disease?

    -

    If there was ever a flat earth mentality alive today, it is alive and well in those who worship at Darwin’s alter believing in evolution.

    God bless you, Duane,

    Mike Ayala