Eric Hovind and Paul Taylor welcome special guest, John MacKay, for the July 28, 2011 episode. John is the International Director of Creation Research. A native of Australia, John has been traveling the world and collecting evidence that God does exist. Eric and Paul ask John about the fossils that he has found in the United States and he explains how they prove Noah’s flood was, indeed, a worldwide event.
After further talking about the Darwin on the Rocks documentary on which Mr. MacKay is currently working, the three discuss a variety of topics including Darwin’s evolution theory, Wallemi pines, living fossils, David Attenborough, and Creation Research’s Jurassic Ark project.
During the third segment, Eric and Paul question John about the debate in which he participated with Reverend Sir Doctor John Polkinghorne in 2005 at the Liverpool Cathedral. Listen to find out what is said about the debate topic, “Is evolution compatible with the Christian faith?”
Eric Hovind: From the CTN Studio in Pensacola, Florida, this is Creation Today where we believe the Bible is literally true and scientifically accurate from the very beginning and we are not ashamed to say so. I am one of your hosts, Eric Hovind.
Paul Taylor: And I am Paul Taylor. We are here every episode to answer questions on science and the Bible, and cover what is going on in creation today. Today we are joined by our special guest, the International Director of Creation Research, John MacKay.
John MacKay: Good day, good day, good day and hi, it is John MacKay from down under.
Eric Hovind: We are looking forward to a great show answering your questions. You guys enjoy this show with John today.
Paul Taylor: Welcome to the show. This is creation today and we are glad to be here with you. As I said before we have got our special guest here today, John MacKay. It is great to have you with us. Thank you for joining us, John.
John MacKay: Good to be here in Florida in your warm, wet climate.
Paul Taylor: We have had a lot of rain recently a few days before recording the show. But remember, this is your show, and if you have questions to ask then please send them in direct; firstname.lastname@example.org or you can Twitter us at CreationToday and you can get onto Facebook — facebook.com/creationtoday.
John, we are just absolutely thrilled to have you with us. You have been here on a tour of the United States; have you not over the last weeks?
John MacKay: Yes, Paul, we did a series of DVDs called Darwin in the Rocks 00:01:43 and we are up to the last part so I flew into Washington state maybe four and a bit weeks ago and there was still snow on the mountains. For an Aussie that was a real thrill after our beautifully warm climate there.
I interviewed a professor, a biosynthetic guy that stitches chemical together on the issues of the origin of life. Then we dealt with caves and stalactites and whether you need time or an intelligent process. So, it has been a great trip and I have finished up down here and just about to head back to Oz.
Paul Taylor: Excellent. So you have been able to pick up lots and lots of evidence, lots and lots of things to film for documentaries, because you have been filming particularly the third of a series, third DVD, fourth part really but a series of talks you have been doing called Darwin in the Rocks. Is that right?
John MacKay: That is correct. Paul, you are actually in the first part, are you not?
Paul Taylor: I am. I was not going to mention that but since
John MacKay: But you are and so you can see Paul if you think he is good looking I would imagine that you could see him in other places as well. The whole series was bored out because of Darwin’s 200th anniversary, just to show that well, Paul, you are English?
Paul Taylor: I believe so, yes.
John MacKay: Yes, and English is a beautiful language so we called it Darwin on the Rocks because it has got several connotations. It really is about the things that Darwin says on the rocks and how, number one, they show that he did not tell you the truth. Of course, in English, on the rocks relates to shipwreck. So, the facts actually shipwreck Darwin’s theory. You did a great job and we filmed the evidence all around the USA and Canada and Australia. I believe you have even seen it, Eric?
Eric Hovind: I have. Do not tell me you guys use this silly accent on the show too? Oh my goodness. You guys are just using that to sound smart. All I got is the American accent — I got nothing, man. I love it. Yeah, great show. I am really enjoying what you guys come up with; showing the evidence, showing the proof. I mean you have got a ton of stuff in there.
John MacKay: There is no doubt about it because we went through Tennessee. Over there a few years ago I found some rocks with seashells and land plants all mixed together. Then I thought to myself, “Well, this is the Pennsylvanian rocks.” Of course, Pennsylvania is a place, not of millions of years of revolution. I thought, “Well, I have seen these rocks before,” and it was over in Wales many years ago. So, what we did was followed this rock layer all around planet earth. I got our guide in England to take me back to Wales to where we thought that quarry might be and I said, “That layer should be here somewhere,” and sure enough, halfway up there was the layer with shells and plants in.
Eric Hovind: Wow.
John MacKay: So this layer actually covers more than 180 degrees of the earth’s surface so anybody who is looking for evidence, not only of the creation of the shells and the plants, but the evidence of God’s judgment at Noah’s flood, you can actually see it, folks. It is really out there and it is rock solid.
Eric Hovind: That really is the point. This shows anybody with half a brain that there really was a worldwide flood, there was a judgment. So, why it is that people do not believe this?
John MacKay: I hate to say this but in all of my experience in dealing with atheist, agnostics, and skeptics, it usually turns out to be that they do not want to know. I say that because I was asked to give a lecture to the geological association in Oxford — and that is not Oxford, Mississippi — it is the real one, all right? At the end of the program there was one professor who really I mean he really got up my goat. Do you have that phrase over here?
Eric Hovind: We have goats over here.
John MacKay: But anyway, he was so objectionable to anything I said. Afterwards he said, “Would you have a drink in the bar with me?” So while he is sipping his whiskey and soda I am drinking my Coke and ice and whatever, and he said, “You are a very brave man.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Well, I have come across all of that evidence of the different races, knowing tribal legends about a flood, but ” I said, “Well, why did you not say so?” The fact is he knew it but he would publicly deny it. So it is one more evidence that your Bible is true because Peter warns us in the last days in 2 Peter chapter 3 that in the last days men will deliberately deny. That is my experience. They do not want to know, even though they do know.
Eric Hovind: Wow. I have been fascinated with your website and you have got a new website where you are answering questions a whole lot and getting overrun with them, right?
John MacKay: That is really the truth, yes. We originally set up CreationResearch.net and that is our main website still. You can read all about these DVDs and get free previews there. Free is a good price in the current American economy, is it not?
Eric Hovind: I like free. Free is always good.
John MacKay: Then you can go to our question and answer website which is AskJohnMacKay.com. You got that, Eric?
Eric Hovind: AskJohnMacKay.com.
John MacKay: Do you not love the way he says that? Ask. Ask. That is a great accent.
Eric Hovind: And it is John [muh-ki], not John [muh-ka].
John MacKay: Yeah, MacKay is Irish and that is the wrong side of the family.
Eric Hovind: Okay, we will not bring that up.
Paul Taylor: You know, when were filming that particular excerpt in the quarry in Wales, which we did, as I remember, with drizzle falling down. More or less continuously because that is what it is like there. We were doing two projects at the same time because I was also filming a documentary on the life of Charles Darwin. One of the things, the reason why I was interviewing you there, was because you were able to talk about this huge rock face; I used it as a visual aid there, about how secular geologists have changed the definitions of the rock layers. You were talking about how those rock layers were originally defined and where the term
John MacKay: Yes, there is no doubt about it because we were in an Ordovician rock layer and the Ordovician people just lived on the border of England and Wales. So when they first studied these, they named them after that local whatever it was, right? So all the Ordovician people, they are extinct, they are killed off so they named the rocks in honor of them because they included a few killed off, extinct, fossils. Do you not get the joke? Well, maybe you do not. But anyway, it had nothing to do with millions of years, nothing to do with creation, and it had nothing to do with evolution. Basically the geologists have forgotten that deliberately and now brought in the millions of years and evolution and everybody thinks it is a fact. Do they not, Paul?
Paul Taylor: Yes. Yeah, they are absolutely convinced that it is a fact. These things you were able to show where it was and where the long gages came from that people basically just looked at a certain depth of rock and said that is so many million years and so on. So, all of these dates and so on would develop long before anyone had come up with any radiometric dating. It was that
John MacKay: That layer we were in, you can actually see it in the bottom of Nashville.
Paul Taylor: Yes.
John MacKay: And it has still got exactly the same fossils in it. So, again, these are unbelievably huge deposits.
Eric Hovind: Worldwide?
John MacKay: Worldwide deposits basically, yes. That is what they are.
Eric Hovind: Which tells us that Noah’s flood probably was not a local flood; it really was a worldwide flood like the Bible says. This is something that Paul and I discuss all of the time on the show —œ with all of that evidence, what is the best evidence that the flood occurred?
John MacKay: That is it.
Eric Hovind: The Bible.
John MacKay: This is chapter 7.
Eric Hovind: It really does come down to the Bible. But not only do we have God’s word, he has given us all of this material evidence as well; which turns out really good. I love the fact that we can study and see the absolute truth of God’s word in nature in what we observe today.
I want to talk to you in just a minute about what you are doing in Australia because you have got some really things going on over there in Australia. I think we ought to take a trip over there sometime and see it ourselves. Do you think so, Paul?
Paul Taylor: I think that would be great.
Eric Hovind: We will find out about that in just a second.
Eric Hovind: Welcome back to Creation Today where we are answering your questions on creation, evolution, science, and the Bible; covering what is going on in creation and why it matters to you. I am joined by a friend, John MacKay, and of course, Paul Taylor, our other host here.
Paul Taylor: Am I a friend as well?
Eric Hovind: Yeah, you can be my friend too, Paul. We are having a great discussion about the work that John is doing in Australia. Before we continue talking about that I want to remind you that we have got our current magazine out. If you have not seen that you can go to creationtoday.org/current. That is creationtoday.org/current and lots of great articles including the Genesis series project that we are working on that is going to cover all kinds of It is just going to be a fascinating project covering Genesis chapter 1-3, Avatar style.
Paul Taylor: Yeah, without the blue aliens.
Eric Hovind: Without the blue aliens, of course, so no blue aliens but it is going to be incredible. I also want to mention that you can get John MacKay’s DVDs. You are on these with that awesome accent so they sound super smart and intelligent along with a lot of other guests on these. This particular one, Darwin’s Evolution, you guys are in Australia. Is that correct?
John MacKay: Yep. A very unnatural selection and basically we looked at all of the Aussie evidence. You know, those fascinating marsupials we have and the fact that many of them are giants.
Eric Hovind: Wow.
John MacKay: The evidence really shows good to bad to worse to Pensacola.
Eric Hovind: Hey, watch it now.
John MacKay: Sorry, sorry, but it is a degeneration from perfection rather than an evolution from nothing to magnificent. So the real history is we are devolving so that is what we did. Filmed it, mostly in Australia, and then looked at the same evidence all around the globe. It is there. Darwin evolution is an absolutely unnatural use of a very interesting phenomenon called natural selection.
Eric Hovind: Where could they get this?
John MacKay: They can go to creationresearch.net and click on our web shop. They can also then hunt down through the USA and order it here.
Eric Hovind: Excellent. I know we are carrying some of your DVDs as well at creationstore.org.
John MacKay: You will be carrying more I hope soon.
Eric Hovind: Hey, Paul, it looks like we need to get another one, right.
Paul Taylor: Yes, absolutely, yeah.
Eric Hovind: More great evidence, more great information, for you as we battle. Because what we find is all over the world, it is not just in America that this creation versus evolution war or battle is taking place. It is happening around the world.
John MacKay: There is no doubt about it. It really is happening around the world. Like even just last night’s report on the BBC shutting down opposition to the global warming position. Global warming, of course, is based on the concept that man is in charge and God is not and that is based on the concept that we got here naturally, rather than by creation. So, again, it goes back to the creation/evolution issue.
Eric Hovind: It really is the root, the foundation, of so many things.
John MacKay: Yeah, it really is. There is no doubt about it.
Eric Hovind: I know, Paul, you are familiar with some of the things that John is doing in Australia and incredible
Paul Taylor: One of the things that you have done, of course, is you have planted a lot of what you would term living fossils. There is a number of very interesting living fossils; especially you might want to tell us a little bit about what you mean by living fossils. Also, one in particular that always interests me, and I keep getting the pronunciation wrong — the Wollemi pine?
John MacKay: Wollemi pine, please.
Paul Taylor: Wollemi pine.
John MacKay: Get your accent right.
Paul Taylor: Wollemi pine copper. That is a
John MacKay: True blue, mate.
Eric Hovind: When you say plants in these it sounds like you guys are like planting them. What do you mean? Like planting evidence?
John MacKay: No, no, no, no. Yes, I guess, in one sense that really is. You see, Charles Darwin at least was objective enough to realize that the fossils “were no help” to his theory. They were the weakest part. Read his chapter on geology where he basically tells us most assuredly they do not show vast changes, simple slow changes over millions of years. He came up with a concept called living fossil – living as in you and me, as in rosebushes, as in Wollemi pine. You got that? Living fossil — “foss” means hole, “il” refers to what is in it. So, when you dig up stuff out of the rocks, you can find fossil Wollemi’s and they look pretty much the same as the living ones.
We mention the Wollemi because it is the latest and most spectacular one. They thought it had been extinct for over 100 million years and then they found a small grove of them growing sort of northwest of Sydney so it has become famous worldwide. What is important about it is well, I remember watching do you remember David Attenborough?
Paul Taylor: I remember David Attenborough, yeah.
John MacKay: He planted one in Kew Gardens, which is basically the most prestigious scientific gardens on the planet. David Attenborough is an atheist, evolutionist
Paul Taylor: I know David
John MacKay: Sorry, sorry, sorry, yes. Sorry, David Attenborough. And he planted a Wollemi pine in the gardens there and basically said, “Is evolution not marvelous? This plant has remained unchanged for hundreds of millions of years.” And you thought lift up your foot, Dave, and shoot a hole through it because you had better get it out of your mouth before you do it. You are in trouble here, right. In other words the evidences, despite the way they put an evolutionary twist on it, the living fossil shows they have produced after their own kind. So, Paul, that is why we have taken Jurassic Ark, our big outdoor project.
About 15 years ago or so, a young man that owned a property was putting in a new dam, a big pond out there; I think you call them over here. He found bits of what he thought was hard wood. Turned out it was fossil wood. We said, “Can we dig?” So we dug and we found lots of trees and then I said, “Can we dig some more?” So we got tractors and bulldozers in and we excavated a fossil forest. Beside it we thought, “Well, if we plant the living plants, the kids can see that since this so called Jurassic Era, which includes the Wollemi.” We planted Wollemi pines, tree ferns, all the fossils you can find in this zone, and the kids can go from here and say, “It has not changed.”
Eric Hovind: It has not changed a bit.
John MacKay: Yeah, it has not changed a bit.
Paul Taylor: Of course, one of the things that fascinates me about the Wollemi pine is that by evolutionary dating methods they said it is about 100 million years ago. That puts it into the age of the dinosaurs
John MacKay: That is correct.
Paul Taylor: and one evolutionist has said that basically finding it was like finding a real live dinosaur.
John MacKay: They basically did. The point you can make, folks, out of any of these millions of years is if Wollemi pine has not changed in 100 million years, it might as well give up trying to evolve. It is not doing it very good. So you have to ask another question, “What stopping it evolving?” The reality is the biologist who gets into the DNA now knows why they do not evolve. Your DNA is actual
Eric Hovind: Because it is so highly evolved already and it has got everything it needs to
John MacKay: Would you stop with that nonsense? Because what we have really discovered is they have readers to match what they should be. The DNA, if it gets altered, there is actually little repairs to switch it back to what it should be. So, they are designed to produce their own kind to remind us that God’s nature is stamped in the creation and he never changes.
Eric Hovind: Wow.
Paul Taylor: Yes.
Eric Hovind: That is fascinating. What a great point to make there. God never changes, His word never changes, and that is really the foundation that we go back to
John MacKay: That is right.
Eric Hovind: all the time is the unchanging authoritative word of God.
John MacKay: Folks, you can see this on creationresearch.net. Scroll down the middle column, hit Jurassic Ark and you just did it before, did you not?
Eric Hovind: I did. I am your site right now.
John MacKay: To see the pictures that are there. That is right.
Eric Hovind: We have got lots of pictures. We will show you some of those and you guys make sure and go check out his website. Obviously, if they want to take a trip over there, you actually let them go to
John MacKay: Yes, we do that and we are organizing a trip I think from here next July or August. That is in 2012.
Eric Hovind: Next year get ready to go on a trip to Australia if you can afford it. They can do all of that. You are going to take care of airline and everything for 200
John MacKay: Deposit.
Eric Hovind: Oh, man, what a trip. Paul, I think maybe we ought to get in on that. What do you think?
Paul Taylor: I think it would be absolutely super to get in on that because that would be a marvelous education as to actually getting your hands literally dirty and the whole business about the fossils and so on. We are going to talk a lot more about this and we are going to do so after this break.
Paul Taylor: Welcome back. You are watching Creation Today with me, Paul Taylor, and with Eric Hovind. On this episode we have got our special guest John MacKay who is the International director of Creation Research. You can get his information; go to the website creationresearch.net. Of course, if you want to ask him some questions — and we have been asking him lots of questions today — if you have got more questions that you want to ask John then go to AskJohnMacKay.com. You can find some of his DVDs either on his website or you can go to our CreationStore.org as well where you will be able to get lots of other interesting information on creation as well.
We have been talking, we have been asking you a lot of questions, John, and you have got a DVD out called The Big Question Debate. The whole point about that debate, it was held in 2005 at Liverpool Cathedral. If anyone knows the UK, the Liverpool Cathedral is an extremely large building; actually built in the 20th century but in mock gothic style. Huge building and the debate there you were holding a debate with the Reverend Sir Doctor John Polkinghorne who seems to be on the face multi-talented. He is a Knight of the Round; the Queen has dubbed him with a sword so he is legally called Sir. He is a doctor, a PhD in Astrophysics. He is a Reverend. He is actually an Ordained Minister in the Church of England.
Eric Hovind: Does he perform surgeries?
Paul Taylor: No, I sort of doubt it.
Eric Hovind: Yes, this guy does it all.
Paul Taylor: And the debate was, “Is evolution compatible with the Christian faith?” The whole point is he was arguing, “Yes, evolution is compatible with the Christian faith.” That is what he believes and you had the affronted to say, “No, it is not compatible.” Tell us a little bit about what happened then in that debate.
Eric Hovind: You are going to have to tell me why you are smarter than me first because apparently this guy has got it all figured out.
John MacKay: Yes, he has got sort of more degrees after his name than a hot day.
John MacKay: There is no doubt about it. Basically, you do not need smarts in many of these things. What you need is wisdom. Right?
Paul Taylor: Yes.
John MacKay: I would encourage the listeners out there to realize that IQ is a basic entity. It does not make you right. IQ can you make you smart, a university can give you a PhD, but God gives wisdom and God alone gives wisdom. Hence in the debate we started with what does God say. Of course, what Professor Polkinghorne, sorry, reverend, doctor, sir, professor Polkinghorne
John MacKay: What he said was that over millions of years, God used natural processes to make things evolve. My starting point and I basically stuck to it, the whole thing was, “Look, God actually says in Genesis 1:31 everything he made was very good. If evolution is true then it has not stopped. It must still be happening so you are just part of the process. That is why sooner or later you will die and somebody else will replace you.” If they are a little bit more capable of coping with Florida heat, they will become dominant, your lot will die out, and natural selection and mutation is still occurring and it is full of death and struggle.
Eric Hovind: Correct.
John MacKay: The point that I was making to the reverend, doctor, sir, John, professor Polkinghorne
John MacKay: was that if God made the world good, none of us when we read the newspaper today, thinks that the world is actually good. What we do is look at murder, slaying, and we say something is wrong with planet earth. So starting with that theme it is a good thing to remind people that G-O-O-D is God plus zero.
John MacKay: So good is God plus nothing else, right?
Eric Hovind: Wow that is right.
John MacKay: And so when Romans chapter 1 says God stamped his nature on the creation; God is good. In him is no evil. He is righteous only so a good creation reflects his nature and in him is life not death.
Eric Hovind: That is so true.
John MacKay: In fact, his message is choose me, choose life; reject me, accept death.
Eric Hovind: Wow.
John MacKay: So basically that was the theme that we followed over and over again. I just said it a gazillion ways and in ways that an Aussie can say it and get away with it in England.
John MacKay: Because they do not understand my accent. That is what we did, Paul, and you enjoyed the debate. It was a marvelous victory; there is no doubt about it.
Paul Taylor: If you watch the debate there is absolutely no doubt that you just blew him out of the water. It was just very well worth watching from that point. It is very entertaining almost from that point of view but it is very, very informative. As a sort of general point, what do you make of people like Polkinghorne because he is just sort of a highly qualified version of many people who we will come across who say, “Well, look, God could have used evolution if he wanted to.” You know, god can do anything. I do not limit God to just creating in the six days. God could have used evolution. There are so many Christians who say we can look at these things, we can have evolutionary science, and we can have the Bible as well. How does that make you feel?
John MacKay: Basically I guess if you have been a professor at Cambridge and an advisor to the British government on science, then you are a little bit overqualified but you do just represent the ordinary person grown big. The ordinary person out there says, “Well, the scientists have proved it.” I will be honest, graduating in geology from Queensland University that is what my professor, who was also the professor of Old Testament, said, “Just believe God used millions of years.”
Eric Hovind: Go ahead and accept it.
John MacKay: I had become a Christian and I thought, “Something is wrong here because when I read Genesis it does not sound like millions of years; it does not sound like evolution.” I would have to say, having done paleontology and all that sort of stuff, you put your hand up and you ask the professor, “But I have heard the theory. Where is the evidence?” By the time I had finished, I do not know how many years at Queensland University, the one thing I was sure of was that evolution may have been an interesting theory but the evidence was not there.
I was not a creationist by that stage but I kept asking questions. If God is real and he can turn water into wine, what evidence would prove Genesis, right? Because he says it is true. I do not lie, right? So basically what the ordinary person does is what I was doing. Why would I want to put God and evolution together? Answer — please my professor. It was nothing else. Why would he want to do that? Because he thought that scientists had proved it. Why would he believe that? Because he actually did not believe the theology he was teaching. He put the scientists there and the theology there, Eric, and it is hard to come to admit that but that is what I was doing. Until I got to say, “Well, hang on. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and he saved me.” He died for me; the professor did not. On judgment day I will not have to give an account to the professor, praise God for that
John MacKay: but I will have to give account to the one who died for me on the cross 2,000 years ago — fact of history.
Eric Hovind: Very well said. Oh, my goodness. You are taking God you are basically saying no, I am not going to let the professor be my authority, I am going to let God be my authority.
John MacKay: That is right. That is how we basically won the debate by continually getting back to that point. Professor Polkinghorne, what is your authority in this? The Lord enabled us to catch him in a wonderful trap because he started out by saying 13 billion years ago or something. I had had a paper of his from 20 years earlier where he started out 15 billion years ago. I said, “Is that not wonderful? In 15 years Professor Polkinghorne has aged 15 years and the universe is one and a half billion years younger. Something is wrong, folks.”
Paul Taylor: Absolutely.
Eric Hovind: It comes down to that. Again, what is the authority and that is what we say all of the time. How do we reason from a point where we are the authority where God is the authority? I love it.
Well, guys, that is the show for today. We have really enjoyed having John on. If you can stick around I would love to do a little bit more talking with you on a future episode. If you have got questions, send them in to email@example.com or you can join us on Twitter — twitter.com/CreationToday and on Facebook — facebook.com/creationtoday.
Paul Taylor: Or tune in each episode just to see if we have answered your question and, of course, those programs are being archived online at creationtoday.org.
Eric Hovind: This has been a production of God Quest Ministries and we would like to thank John for joining us for today’s program.
John MacKay: Good knowing you, mate, and we will see you again.