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Did the Dinosaurs Become Extinct?

A recent study has just come out from scientists claiming that evidence of man and dinosaurs living together is bogus. The new report claims that the most famous petroglyph of a dinosaur in Kachina Bridge, Utah, is not a dinosaur at all; instead, using drawings to illustrate their point, they are describing it as the combination of two different petroglyphs.

“The most important implication of these findings is that one of the creationist camp’s favorite piece of ‘evidence’ for the coexistence of dinosaurs and humans—a dinosaur petroglyph—doesn’t even exist,” said researcher Phil.

The article goes on to state:

“But the archaeologists who did the subsequent fieldwork knew exactly what they were looking at when they came out to examine the figure.”

Well, I am sure they did! If you believe in the evolution worldview, you could never accept these as dinosaurs because it goes against your preconceived worldview. The only way you would “know exactly what to look for” is if you had a preconceive idea, rather than looking at the evidence objectively.

Leave it to the “scientists” to skew the evidence so they don’t have to abandon their worldview! This comment came to me on Facebook from a friend named Anna and she tells us how Carl Sagan reconciled the facts that flew in the face of evolutionism.

Carl Sagan was so disturbed by the fact that there are dragon legends all across the globe (pointing to the fact that historical humans have interacted with dinosaurs) that he wrote a really lame book trying to say that humans must have an “inherited memory” all the way down the “evolutionary” ladder that made all these cultures think up dragons. Think I’m not telling the truth about this idiocy? Think again:  They are still selling it— The Dragons of Eden.

Thanks Anna—you hit the nail on the head!  Why ignore the truth and instead believe a lie? Oh yeah, that’s right: 2 Peter 3:3.

Further Study:

If you want the truth on dinosaurs we’ve got it!

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Leave34 Responses to testDid the Dinosaurs Become Extinct?

  1. Stephen Porter April 12, 2011 at 6:20 am #

    The picture about dinosaurs looks clearer when you step back one step. Try looking at reptiles and mammals. In school we learned that dinosaurs ruled the earth and were the dominant animal and that now the mammals have become the dominant animal form.(I’m dating myself. That was in the 60′s) God said this very thing by cursing the reptiles in Genesis 3:14.
    Mr. Hovind please check out my blog postings at alwayslearningchristian.blogspot.com/

  2. Geno Castagnoli April 12, 2011 at 7:30 am #

    So, dinos and humans lived together, but there are exactly zero examples of their fossilized remains being found in the same strata…. despite many of them being victims of a single flood event.

    I guess all the oak trees and flowering plants outran the velociraptors to the high ground and the burrowing moles were able to dig their homes above the pterodactyls too.

    One of us has a “preconceived worldview.” I submit it is the one who subscribes to the following:
    “No apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and science, can be valid if it contradicts Scripture.” (From the CSE statement of faith.)

  3. John Bebbington April 12, 2011 at 7:38 am #

    The only way you would “know exactly what to look for” is if you had a preconceive idea, rather than looking at the evidence objectively.

    Eric, you really are incorrigible – and either dishonest or illiterate.

    A literate person does not put into quotation marks a sentence which does not appear in the item he purports to be quoting from. To “know exactly what to look for” is not the same as “knew exactly what they were looking at”. For some reason best known to yourself you have chosen to deliberately change the wording (and hence the meaning) of the article.

    In this case, the scientists first examined the petroglyph and recognised that parts of the picture were not “pecked” but were natural staining. Unfortunately for you, this is not what you wanted them to find. You are the one with the twisted “worldview” because you cannot tolerate evidence which countermands your preconceptions. If you had bestirred yourself to go the original paper (free on-line at palaeo-electronica.org/2011_1/236/236.pdf) among much else you would have found this:

    The “head,” “neck,” and “torso” are a single item: a thick, sinuous shape formed by pecking. The “tail” is a second, U- shaped item formed by pecking. That the two items are indeed two separate items is indicated by a gap between them and also by differences in peck- ing patterns and densities between the two. The “legs” are not part of the image and are not pecked or otherwise human-made but are stains of mud or some light-colored mineral on the irregular surface. What appears to be an eye is a natural chip or depression. What appears to be a smiling mouth is the edge of the pecking that forms the “chin.” It follows a raised surface that continues to the right, beyond the “head.” The meaning of the two pecked items is enigmatic, but it is clear that neither depicts an animal.

    So, on the one hand, there is part of the form which is pecked but the legs of the “animal” are not. The image is not one of a dinosaur produced by a human pecker. This is what the archaeologists saw on their inspection and they immediately recognised what they were looking at, viz one area of pecked rock adjoining an area of stained rock.

    But thanks for the mention of Carl Sagan’s book of which I had not previously heard. I immediately went onto the Amazon website and managed to purchase a used copy for under the English equivalent of 2 dollars. I don’t suppose your friend Anna actually bothered reading the book before writing her critique of it. But then, being an accomplished neuroscientist (I assume), she wouldn’t have needed to.

  4. Corey April 12, 2011 at 7:55 am #

    Does this prove that dinosaurs and humans co-existed?

    i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/16/article-1258196-0022053E00000258-650_468x399.jpg

  5. Kenneth Tyner April 12, 2011 at 8:37 am #

    In order for them to admit the truth, they must first admit to the lie they have been telling for the last 2 centuries.

    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life.” Leo Tolstoy

  6. Jack Napper April 12, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    Well, I am sure they did! If you believe in the evolution worldview, you could never accept these as dinosaurs because it goes against your preconceived worldview.

    And if you have a preconceived ‘worldview’ that “God did it” no amount of evidence will ever sway you. Is that the argument you’re making Eric? The problem Eric is that theses people are trained in this field rather than layman who simply write blog stating “it looks like a dinosaur therefore that’s what it is”. These are the same people who can’t get around complexity so they proclaim their invisible man did it.

    The only way you would “know exactly what to look for” is if you had a preconceive idea, rather than looking at the evidence objectively.

    That’s right, which is why Creationists always look foolish. Science allows you to make predictions and then test and verify those predictions. Creation Science starting to look a little silly if you folks don’t already know that. Not to mention these people are educated and have been trained in their field. If you want another example of layman nonsense I can point you to all the plunders they made with claims of the Chinese writing system.

    Leave it to the “scientists” to skew the evidence so they don’t have to abandon their worldview!

    Project much?

    Carl Sagan was so disturbed by the fact that there are dragon legends all across the globe (pointing to the fact that historical humans have interacted with dinosaurs) that he wrote a really lame book trying to say that humans must have an “inherited memory” all the way down the “evolutionary” ladder that made all these cultures think up dragons.

    Obviously Anna is hoping no one has ever actually read the book or that no one who reads this blog ever will.

    Thanks Anna—you hit the nail on the head!

    Too bad it was not only the wrong nail.

  7. John Bebbington April 12, 2011 at 11:02 am #

    Brent Madawick wrote:

    You can not speak unless the God of the Bible is real. What worldview accounts for knowledge and thought. Keep saying, “ohh we dont know yet, to this…and saying ” ohh we dont know that yet either..’when you see a book the Bible that cannot be proved wrong, and is the powerful book on human history and as for its Hero, JC, he is the most influential man in history

    Even though, as all biblical scholars have to admit, St Paul seems to have known little if anything of an earthly Jesus. If he had been asked the question “Where was Jesus born?” I think that Paul would have had to answer (as I sometimes answer on other matters) “I do not know”.

    it seems that when you pray to him, you are free from Bondage, dude you are so quick to backup a theory of “oh we dont know yet” but you live by faith that tomorrow your going to wake up and everything is going to run smoothly,

    Just because I think it probable on good evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow does not mean that I also have to believe in talking snakes and donkeys.

    ” Assumption of nature” wow and you cant account for this, but in your worldivew, everything changes right? everything evolves?but you wake up knowing that it will be the same, gravity, coals law, boils law, chemistry… all work the same

    Coal’s Law? Who he? I thought that was Russian salad.

    and The God of the Bible and Jesus Christ’s worldview that he offers you to have is the only one that accounts for constant sustained life.
    becuase he is a constant, lawgiver, beyond all time space and matter

    So I have heard say. Still waiting for the evidence, though.

    Jesus is the only way to free you becuae he rose from the dead and is with us now.

    I think that if you read Acts you will find that he shot up to heaven through the usual conveniently-placed cloud and isn’t due to return for some time. Perhaps you are confusing JC with the Holy Spirit.

    he is dying to do so.

    Hasn’t he been there, done that? But thanks for the chat. As I have written many times before, I am not interested in discussing religion.

  8. Don Carr April 12, 2011 at 1:03 pm #

    Did Christians become extinct ?

    Are the current crop of supposed Christians doing anything more than inventing their own Talmud of rituals and behavioural modification.

    How is arguing about dinosaurs going to feed people when the economy collapses due to the world banking agenda of control and depopulation.

    Christians speak openly

  9. Stephen Holshouser April 12, 2011 at 2:56 pm #

    I have a few theories about the picture;

    1. It could be that they were running short on rocks to draw on, so they had to put 2 different petroglyphs on the same rock.

    2. They could have been making one of those “double-illusion” pictures… you know, where you look at it for a minute and then the other picture pops out at you. “Hey, I see the dinosaur… no wait, its 2 completely different drawings put together that don’t look like anything at all!… can’t you see it now?”

    3. The most probable explanation; the rock, along with the pictures on it just arose from random, natural processes over billions of years. It looks like someone drew something on it, but that is just your imagination… no intelligence involved here.

    (PS; I love how the article cited doesn’t show the real picture that is shown above… surely they don’t have an agenda… after all, these are “scientists” we’re talking about!)

  10. Duane April 12, 2011 at 10:21 pm #

    Or, you both could actually read the book and see that isn’t the case at all. I look forward to Anna’s book, as well.

    The whole world is laughing at you. The Flintstones is not a documentary.

  11. Randy Miller April 13, 2011 at 10:57 am #

    The indistinct drawing looks nothing like the real drawing.
    The actual drawing looks like a dinosaur.
    Even a 10 year old could see it …
    **
    Combine Kachina Bridge with; other dinosaur depictions found from antiquity, the many “legends” of “dragons/dinosaurs” from different cultures, the Biblical reference to dinosaurs (Book of Job), and other evidences (like fossilized human footprints found with fossilized dinosaur prints), and we at the very least have reasonable doubt about the “evolution timeline”.
    It is “interesting” how the modern day “high priests” (of accepted thought) do not allow questioning of the evolution dogma.
    They NEED their “millions/billions of years timeline” …
    Therefore it is beyond investigation …
    Making it beyond science –> A sacred cow so to speak.

  12. Randy Miller April 13, 2011 at 11:46 am #

    ===============
    Don Carr asked,

    “Did Christians become extinct ?
    Are the current crop of supposed Christians doing anything more than inventing their own Talmud of rituals and behavioural modification.
    How is arguing about dinosaurs going to feed people when the economy collapses due to the world banking agenda of control and depopulation.”
    Christians speak openly …
    ===============
    Don,

    I definitely understand why you would ask such a question …
    But I’m wondering, are you a christian?
    Because the “supposed christian” comment seems kind of harsh.
    Nevertheless, here’s an answer (speaking for myself of course),
    #1 I am up to speed and educated about the New World Order. I consider myself prepared spiritually, and physically.
    #2 I am quite sure the Hovind’s are educated about it as well because I have heard Kent mention several aspects of it on his videos.
    #3 Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life. Living, and speaking the truth helps us to renew our minds, and walk in the spirit. God’s Word is true, evolution is a lie –> Speaking the truth (to the best of our ability) is a good thing.
    #4 Darwinism has darkened the minds of millions of people. Groups like CSE are working to shine the light of truth. It’s evangelism.
    #5 Knowing Christ is more important than whether or not we survive the coming holocaust –> Isn’t it?
    #6 But yeah, “arguing” about doctrine with unbelievers can most certainly be a waste of time.
    #7 I’m interested in the question of where we come from, is it ok if I study it and talk about it some (for now)? I think so …

    Sincerely,
    Randy

  13. John Bebbington April 13, 2011 at 12:36 pm #

    Don Carr wrote:

    Did Christians become extinct ?

    No, Don, there is still one born every minute.

    A better question would have been: if Christianity evolved from Judaism how come there is still Judaism.

  14. John Bebbington April 13, 2011 at 12:44 pm #

    If you believe in the evolution worldview, you could never accept these as dinosaurs because it goes against your preconceived worldview. The only way you would “know exactly what to look for” is if you had a preconceive idea, rather than looking at the evidence objectively.

    Eric has really shot himself in the foot on this one.

    There is no mention in the paper as to the religious leanings of the archeologists. Eric has just assumed that they were non-creationists.

    Also, there is no evidence that the scientists went to the site to disprove the claims of the creationists – they went to examine the artefact and check the claims against the evidence. Even if they had found that the artefact was fully graved it still wouldn’t have proved that the original artist had tried to reproduce the likeness of a real animal anymore than Dark Horse Comics reproduces pictures of real spaceships.

    As far as I am aware, despite the period this artefact has been known about and the importance it held for YECist dogma, no YECist had gone to the site with a ladder to examine the artefact from close quarters. That would have been far too much like hard work. So, as far as the creationist is concerned, if the artefact looks anything like a dinosaur (especially if you squidge your eyes up really tightly) then a dinosaur it is. So who is it with the preconceived “worldview”?

    Leave it to the “scientists” to skew the evidence so they don’t have to abandon their worldview! 

    So, Eric, without even expending the minimal effort involved in reading the original paper, you accuse the scientists of lying. What does the good book say about bearing false witness?

  15. John Bebbington April 13, 2011 at 3:23 pm #

    Danny wrote:

    Did you watch “Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed”? You would know better where I am coming from.

    You are a very easy man to con, Danny. The film was dishonest trash from start to finish and if you can’t see that then I cannot help you.

    
I also noticed that you said in the above paragraph that Jesus would be ashamed of Christians for quote mining. Just as in the physical there could be riches in gold mining, there is riches in quote mining. Just show us where the evolutionists lied. I don’t believe that you are concerned whether Jesus cared about quote mining or not since you speak as if it is a sin.

    According to your religion bearing false witness is a sin.

    It probably is to you since you can’t answer the quotes except by getting off the issues and bringing up a different one hoping the issue dealt with will be forgotten. It won’t happen with me. I quoted it accurately and in context. Show me the problems or the untruth, get you focus off the poople and deal with the issues.

    Danny, you don’t even understand your own quotations. Matthews opens the paragraph by stating “The fact of evolution…”. Evolution is a fact. What he then went on to discuss was the mechanism which causes it (the theory) to happen. It is the exact nature of the mechanism which is under discussion. But there is no point discussing it with you because you don’t believe that evolution has occurred – you believe that the fact of evolution is false. And yet, unfortunately for your lack of understanding, it is evolution which is likely to kill you. Gene transfer between bacteria of different species has been observed and it is this mechanism which is causing increasingly rapid growth in antibiotic resistance. Note that phrase: gene transfer between bacteria of different species, i.e. evolution.

    Still, God is much better than antibiotics at curing bacterial infections, isn’t he?

    
I asked you about the online book and you once again decided it wasn’t worth reading because it was written by a 7 Day Adventist.

    No, I didn’t reject his book because of his religious views but because of his nonsensical “science.”

    
You said that you didn’t like his nothingness comment condensing into a single tiny dot and decided to explode. I showed you again using David Darling that evolutionists believe it Since you talked like he was speaking total nonsense in regards to what evolutionists believe then you tell me.

    Danny, it is you who believes that something came from nothing. If the total net energy of the universe is zero, as cosmologists now suspect is the case, what was created?

    I am all ears. Tell me what you think of the big bang and where life came from, etc. AND if you do NOT know then don’t be jumping down creationists’ throats because they want you to know.

    How often do I have to repeat that I don’t know? But neither do you. The difference between us is that I know I don’t know but you mistakenly think you do. There is a lot of empirical evidence as well as rational explanations to suggest various mechanisms for both the “creation” of the universe and the start of life processes but are any correct? I’ve no idea.

    But I do know for various reasons that no human being ever saw a live stegosaur.

  16. Pablo Cruz April 13, 2011 at 3:54 pm #

    I want to point out that the “head of the snake” cannot be a head. It is part of a “Hopi” symbol (Hopitu-shinumu (Hopi) means Peaceful People; this serves as a background to understanding their use of symbols).

    Hopi means Peaceful People and therefore has nothing to do with a snake.

    Hopi Spiral Symbol:
    This rendition of the Hopi spiral is also common among North, South and Central Native American Indian tribes. The spiral represents the number of journeys or treks a tribe or nation has made to the four corners of the earth. Engraved on stones, the spiral suggests an intricate journey made to the Otherworlds on back. Generally, the spiral represents a broadening of consciousness, which is the destination arrived after a long journey. (Beyond the Mystery website).

    There are other websites of Native American Symbols like Shannon Thunberbird.com that describes the spiral symbol (towards the end of the page).

    If only the scientists did a little more investigation, they wouldn’t have committed this obvious error.

  17. Peter Bilmer April 13, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    I agree Stephen!
    Really interesting that these “scientists” never showed an actual petroglyph of the apatosaurus (?) -or whatever species it might be.

    Here a depiction:

    s7.directupload.net/images/110414/cxbveaql.jpg

    They called the right depiction in their “article” the “creationist drawing”.
    Probably they are right the ancient people were mostly creationist.

    One has to admitt that the evolutionary world view possesses a certain consistency in some areas:
    Not only biology, astronomy, chemistry, nature and life which give the impression to be designed and created
    now all petroglyphs which contradict the evolutionary, uniformatarianistic, anti-Biblical model are declared an illusion as well.
    An inquiry of their faith so to speak.

    Thanks Eric for reacting on it.
    God bless!

  18. Duane April 13, 2011 at 9:46 pm #

    Eric,

    When you get a free moment, look up the word “Pareidolia”. Ok, I’ll save you the effort.

    pareidolia
    noun
    °The tendency to interpret a vague stimulus as something known to the viewer, such as interpreting marks on Mars as canals, seeing shapes in clouds, or hearing hidden messages in reversed music.

    When you post stuff like this it makes you look foolish. I don’t care how many times you post that same verse about scoffers or fools, I don’t know why I am supposed to trust you when you are fooled as easily as this.

  19. John Bebbington April 14, 2011 at 3:53 am #

    From Stephen’s webpag – an essay on snakes:

    It is common knowledge that Eve’s disobedience put a curse on women causing them to have a difficult time at childbirth and making them subject to the rule of their husbands.

    That is not common knowledge but a popular myth. It’s big heads and narrow hips that cause the pain. Thank heavens for epidurals.

     As well, Adam’s disobedience created death for all mankind and he would gather his food with more difficulty.
    |
    |
    |
    God cursed all of His creation because He gave it to man [Adam] to control and look after and Adam gave that control over to the Devil when he obeyed him.

    4004 BC. Two for dinner. Dress not required. God thought himself in control.

    2004 AD 6 billion for dinner. Dress preferable. Devil in control (according to Stephen).

    It looks like the devil is making a pretty good job of looking after us.

    Most of the reptiles died in the cold flood and what remained lived close to the ground all their lives.

    Those dinosaurs that walked on two legs and were so tall were gone. The dinosaurs we have today all live close to the ground, walking or sliding along on their bellies and breathe in the dust that their short legs stir up.

    Apart from the fact that snakes don’t have external legs, what about water snakes? And what about those snakes who live in trees?

    Also, all the lizards I have met are all rather charming and seem to live in very nice villas in beautiful holiday spots.

    Our poor snake went from being the largest and most majestic animals in the entire world to the most hated and lowest animals;

    Not because they are cursed but because some are sneaky and have a nasty bite. I used to have a pet rainbow boa and he wasn’t nasty at all all though he did try to go for my eye once when I was trying to help him off with his old coat.

    And, finally, your entire thesis is wrong because snakes aren’t dinosaurs. They are reptiles. All Baptists are Christians but not all Christians are Baptists.

  20. John Bebbington April 14, 2011 at 4:44 am #

    Hi Jennifer,

    You wrote in reply to me “I said “In Our Universe”. God is outside our Universe and that Time doesn’t really exist for God.”

    I agree the theological hypothesis. But that leads directly to the problem that for an eternal God there was never a “time” when he decided to do anything. There could have been no process of decision making since any such process requires that there was a “time” before which the process had not commenced. So, if God decided to create the universe at t=0 then perhaps that is all there is. Eternal God only became eternal God at t=0.

    This being the case then there is no reason to invent a God since whatever caused the decision-making process could also have caused the universe. Pre-empting your response, I do not see that it can be an argument that God and his decision-making process are both self-caused since such an idea is philosophically incoherent, the arguments becoming circular.

    I realise that, quite rightly, you do not believe in a literal Genesis. It is beyond rationality to believe that an omniscient god would create a vast universe and then, a few days later, expend time wandering about in a garden looking for his naughty missing avatar.

  21. Pablo Cruz April 14, 2011 at 4:46 pm #

    Pareidolia?? Really?? Some of you conveniently overlooked my statement.

    Native Americans are well known for their symbols and its meanings.

    The “snake’s head” is no head. It’s a symbol. I’ve provided two non Christian websites you can look up. That spiral represents a journey.

    If anyone of you still want to believe the petroglyph is a snake, I have one question for you, who’s suffering from pareidolia now??

    From the Native American’s point of view, that’s no snake.

  22. Stephen Holshouser April 14, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    John B,

    Regarding your response to Jennifer concerning time and God’s actions outside of it;

    Just because you’ve lived closer to t=0 than any of the rest of us, does that make you an expert in the field? : ) What is it like to be outside of time? What can the Eternal God do in eternity? Answer: You, nor I, nor anyone else has the foggiest. We have only known what it is like to be in time, and we don’t even have the capacity to think outside of it. Try to imagine a state of no time… you can’t, and when you are trying to imagine it, you’re using time to do it in. Just because something is paradoxical to us, even in this world, doesn’t make it untrue or impossible.

    When you imagine God making decisions in eternity, you are still picturing Him in some form of time… you don’t have the ability to do anything but that, which is what causes you to come to your wrong conclusions. Trying to convince people of what God can’t do outside of time is just another one of your many attempts to deny the obvious reality of our Creator. Your finite reasoning is exactly that.

    Do you agree with me that something caused time, matter, and energy to come into existence? If so, then you also agree that something outside of time brought about the universe as we know it. But if we use your faulty logic, then whatever caused time, matter and energy to come into existence did not ever actually have time to start the process, therefore, that original cause does not exist, right? Just like I can disprove Zeno’s paradox by reaching for the mouse, I can disprove your hypothesis simply by existing.

    Don’t you see in your own mind and heart that nothing temporal can ultimately satisfy you? Man’s soul cannot be satisfied outside of the Eternal Creator, the only Lord God, who may only be approached through His eternal Son, Jesus Christ.

  23. Richard Mahn April 15, 2011 at 1:51 am #

    Great stuff. Have watched Dr. Hovind’s video on this and is very convincing. Hope to get a chance to see your video some day Eric. Thanks again.

  24. John Bebbington April 15, 2011 at 10:24 am #

    Pablo Cruz:

    From the Native American’s point of view, that’s no snake.

    Pablo, how was the image made? It seems very small and I assume it was caused by some unskilled youngster sitting on somebody else’s shoulders and hitting at the rock with a smaller rock. That it looks like anything at all is a bit of a miracle.

  25. John Bebbington April 15, 2011 at 12:04 pm #

    Stephen wrote:

    John B,
    Regarding your response to Jennifer concerning time and God’s actions outside of it;
    Just because you’ve lived closer to t=0 than any of the rest of us, does that make you an expert in the field? : )

    Stephen, I was certainly closer to t=0 at one time than most here but, no, it doesn’t make me an expert. I have to admit that I’m not an expert in anything. But you already knew that.

    What is it like to be outside of time? What can the Eternal God do in eternity? Answer: You, nor I, nor anyone else has the foggiest. We have only known what it is like to be in time, and we don’t even have the capacity to think outside of it. Try to imagine a state of no time… you can’t, and when you are trying to imagine it, you’re using time to do it in.

    You are preaching to the converted. Tell me something new.

    Just because something is paradoxical to us, even in this world, doesn’t make it untrue or impossible.

    Outside of quantum mechanics and provided its arguments are true paradoxes are impossible.

    When you imagine God making decisions in eternity, you are still picturing Him in some form of time… you don’t have the ability to do anything but that, which is what causes you to come to your wrong conclusions. Trying to convince people of what God can’t do outside of time is just another one of your many attempts to deny the obvious reality of our Creator. Your finite reasoning is exactly that.

    With the heat death of the universe time stretches out into the future eternally. It can never reach eternity but every second that passes it gets closer to it. How long will it take before it becomes impossible to differentiate between God’s eternity and the past near eternity of the universe? Of course, the question cannot be answered.

    As to your point, I was not imagining God making decisions in time – that was the whole point of my question to which I have no answer. So I asked it of a scientist who might have some ideas rather than you. No offence.

    Do you agree with me that something caused time, matter, and energy to come into existence?

    No, I don’t. Check out M-theory. Perhaps invest a little money in reading Stephen Hawking’s 2009 book Grand Design, Brian Greene’s The Hidden Reality or, if you can manage the maths, Roger Penrose’s The Road to Reality.

    It is postulated by some that time ceases at the centre of black holes which then create new universes. I don’t know that they do and you don’t know that they don’t. But if they do then time restarts from t=0 and no agency, other than physics, has caused the new universe. It just is.

    But if we use your faulty logic, ……….

    Arrogant? Not Stephen.

    …..then whatever caused time, matter and energy to come into existence did not ever actually have time to start the process, therefore, that original cause does not exist, right?

    Right – except physics of which you have little if any knowledge.

    Just like I can disprove Zeno’s paradox by reaching for the mouse, I can disprove your hypothesis simply by existing.

    I didn’t offer a hypothesis – I asked a question. You are the one offering a certainty but just because you exist does not prove “Jesusdidit”. If God had done it then it shouldn’t have taken Christians 2,000 years of revelation and many miles of filled bookshelves to come to no serious conclusions amongst themselves.

    Don’t you see in your own mind and heart that nothing temporal can ultimately satisfy you? Man’s soul cannot be satisfied outside of the Eternal Creator, the only Lord God, who may only be approached through His eternal Son,

    Empty words and self-delusion in my opinion. But, if it floats your Ark, good for you.

  26. Duane April 15, 2011 at 5:56 pm #

    @Pablo Cruz

    Even if it is what you say, there is still pareidolia in those seeing a dinosaur.

  27. Joanna Gadzinski April 15, 2011 at 11:07 pm #

    Geez, you evolutionist guys are amazing! It’s amazing how you could be so blind. I mean, you have an intellectual capability of diserning evidence and yet you completely miss the mark. I’ll even bet that most of you believe in aliens from other planets. Either you are truely ignorant or you’re here for a purpose. The question is, what does your conscience tell you. And why do you put such effort in arguing on a website that you shouldn’t even be on? I realy feel sad for you guys. You’re being controlled and you just accept it.

  28. Danny April 16, 2011 at 4:08 am #

    John BebbingtonApril 13th at 3:23 pm
    Danny wrote:
    Did you watch “Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed”? You would know better where I am coming from.
    You are a very easy man to con, Danny. The film was dishonest trash from start to finish and if you can’t see that then I cannot help you.
    John, I surely like hearing from you. You are just about the only person that I know that sounds like he is really saying something important or true but you look between the lines and there isn’t any substance there. You said that the film was dishonest. It was the best documentary film for that year so there are a lot of people very easy to “con”. BUT they did not fool John Bebbington, he is too smart to be fooled by truth since it blows his religious worldview to pieces and they just hit the icing on the cake, so to speak. I KNOW all those evolutionists lied in the movie, case closed! Evolutionists HAVE lied time and time again in the past and are still doing it and many have been shown to you but you just sweep them under the rug. NOW it looks nice in here???” There are too many to mention BUT they have been brought to your attention many times but you seem to forget them. Whether we are talking about the bones from monkey to man, the moths, the embryos, horse evolution has been shot down, the drawings of a complete monkey man with his family included and they did that wonderful artwork from just a pig’s tooth. Those evolutionists are incredible but I think the artists are even more incredible. It is magic at its’ best.

    ?I also noticed that you said in the above paragraph that Jesus would be ashamed of Christians for quote mining. Just as in the physical there could be riches in gold mining, there is riches in quote mining. Just show us where the evolutionists lied. I don’t believe that you are concerned whether Jesus cared about quote mining or not since you speak as if it is a sin.
    According to your religion bearing false witness is a sin.
    @John, And according to your religion, “evolution” bearing false witness is not a sin, correct?”
    It probably is to you since you can’t answer the quotes except by getting off the issues and bringing up a different one hoping the issue dealt with will be forgotten. It won’t happen with me. I quoted it accurately and in context. Show me the problems or the untruth, get you focus off the poople and deal with the issues.
    Danny, you don’t even understand your own quotations. Matthews opens the paragraph by stating “The fact of evolution…”. Evolution is a fact. What he then went on to discuss was the mechanism which causes it (the theory) to happen. It is the exact nature of the mechanism which is under discussion. But there is no point discussing it with you because you don’t believe that evolution has occurred – you believe that the fact of evolution is false. And yet, unfortunately for your lack of understanding, it is evolution which is likely to kill you.
    John, I will be playing with words here a little. You are probably right that “evolution” will kill me, it has been the reason to justify murder, killing all over the world for years and years and years. If I am just a higher animal then it should not be a big deal if they experiment on me as they would a worm or frog or rat or any other animal. Hitler, Mussolini, and a ton of other evolutionists have used evolution as a means to kill the unfit, the feeble as has Margaret Sanger, the founder or Planned Parenthood. John, a question, what would you think if they wanted to use me and other Christians as guinea pigs? Be honest with me, would it be a big deal to you? Just curious,”

    Gene transfer between bacteria of different species has been observed and it is this mechanism which is causing increasingly rapid growth in antibiotic resistance. Note that phrase: gene transfer between bacteria of different species, i.e. evolution.
    Still, God is much better than antibiotics at curing bacterial infections, isn’t he?
    Yes John, God is far, far better. Did you read my reply to Corey? I base my life on my God, he has brought me through time and time again and I do not believe that he is going to let me down as I go to him in faith. I was preaching tonight and one of my favorites nonsense religions came into my topic, that being evolution. I go into a few reasons why evolution is nonsense and why there are NO atheists, they don’t exist. I also brought up Corey in my teaching sharing why I told him that I would rather die trusting in God than die trusting in doctors. I was sharing how based on statistics that approx 120,000 people die from using legal drugs and around 90,000 die from improper care in hospitals and the like. I am saying that is the yearly average. I was also preaching on how silly it is for evolutionists to go up to a Christian and tell him that there is no God, I go on to tell them that God is my Father, my life. For someone to tell me that God doesn’t exist would be like me walking up to a so-called atheist and telling him that his parents don’t exist. My statement would be as stupid as his would be to me. I KNOW God, fellowship with him, he leads me, heals me, helps me, loves me. I wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for him.
    Dying would not be terrible to me. I just go to a higher and better life. NO matter how good my life is here, it will be better there.

    ?I asked you about the online book and you once again decided it wasn’t worth reading because it was written by a 7 Day Adventist.
    No, I didn’t reject his book because of his religious views but because of his nonsensical “science.”
    John, Here it is again, your “matter of fact” attitude. You know it all or maybe most of the all. You don’t want to appear perfect yet, I don’t guess. You hardly ever deal with the issues, you just make one liners that are usually cuts or one lines like you have been doing with me in this post and your last one. You supply no proof for you statements but they are correct, you said them so they must be.

    ?You said that you didn’t like his nothingness comment condensing into a single tiny dot and decided to explode. I showed you again using David Darling that evolutionists believe it Since you talked like he was speaking total nonsense in regards to what evolutionists believe then you tell me.
    Danny, it is you who believes that something came from nothing. If the total net energy of the universe is zero, as cosmologists now suspect is the case, what was created?
    John, you figure out your problem. I already know how it all came into being, by an all knowing, all powerful God who spoke it into existence. I don’t understand why in the natural that you can’t see it. You speak it like ever so many evolutionists have in many articles that I have read by them over the years, “we think, it probably happened, it might have been like this, we believe, we are fairly sure. NOW you are telling me what cosmologists “suspect”. Most of the things they thought, believed, figured, guessed have been wrong so this will just be another notch on their belt, so to speak.

    I am all ears. Tell me what you think of the big bang and where life came from, etc. AND if you do NOT know then don’t be jumping down creationists’ throats because they want you to know.
    How often do I have to repeat that I don’t know? But neither do you. The difference between us is that I know I don’t know but you mistakenly think you do. There is a lot of empirical evidence as well as rational explanations to suggest various mechanisms for both the “creation” of the universe and the start of life processes but are any correct? I’ve no idea.
    John, WOW, you actually said that you don’t know. BUT then again, after you admitted that you do not know, you had to throw me in there to hy telling me that I don’t know either. BUT I do KNOW, God is the creation. This should go down in the history books, “There is something that John DOESN’T know. WOW!

    But I do know for various reasons that no human being ever saw a live stegosaur.
    Well, in closing the old John we have grown to know and love on CSE blogs is back. NOW you KNOW that NO human being ever saw a live stegosaur. HOW do you KNOW that John? Even if someone gave you absolute proof that they lived side by side you would deny it SINCE YOU KNOW that NO human ever saw a live stegosaur. You probably can’t see that most everything you say, you base on your belief system since you live by faith as all of us do. But the Lord Jesus Christ said, “Have faith in God”, that is the faith that you so badly need John.

    Ekkman

  29. Ryan Chew April 16, 2011 at 3:19 pm #

    Calling it “inherited memory” or “two petroglyphs” are poor explanations. That said, couldn’t an ancient human have simply found a fossil? And if dinosaurs and humans did coexist, why aren’t there more drawings of them?

  30. John Bebbington April 18, 2011 at 9:51 am #

    Joanna Gadzinski wrote:

    Geez, you evolutionist guys are amazing!

    Thank you. Your pretty cute yourself.

    It’s amazing how you could be so blind. I mean, you have an intellectual capability of diserning evidence and yet you completely miss the mark. I’ll even bet that most of you believe in aliens from other planets.

    And you don’t? Where does it say in the bible that life does not exist any where else in the universe?

    Personally, I’ve no idea whether life exists elsewhere but I’ve no reason to reject the idea out of hand.

    Either you are truely ignorant or you’re here for a purpose. The question is, what does your conscience tell you.

    What’s conscience to do with science?

    And why do you put such effort in arguing on a website that you shouldn’t even be on?

    Who said? Would you be here if it wasn’t for us?

    You’re being controlled and you just accept it.

    I’m not controlled. Like you, I wear one of those tinfoil hats.

  31. Duane April 18, 2011 at 10:54 am #

    Danny,
    Have you actually bothered to look into Expelled? There was a lot of lying going on in that movie but it wasn’t the evolutionists. Checkout expelledexposed.com. It was the most dishonest documentary I’ve ever seen.

  32. Oliver Chant April 18, 2011 at 11:12 am #

    Hi I’m from South Africa ,I’m 15years old and am already being taught the lies of evolution although most South African teachers are in favour ofevolution as false being not enough hard facts.I just want to say I tried to argue with my teacher explaining Panagaea and how the dinosaurs got all over the continent ,well,trying to argue against arrogance is fruitless.And I quote what my teacher and I said in one of the discussions:She said to me “you have a pre-conceived way to think about the world and don’t know any better”I in reply said “Ma’am likewise with you as you have not even heard my side of the story”I was sent out the classroom.

  33. John Bebbington April 18, 2011 at 11:41 am #

    Danny, too many words but I’ll do my best to reply:

    John, I surely like hearing from you. You are just about the only person that I know that sounds like he is really saying something important or true but you look between the lines and there isn’t any substance there.

    You should read the lines and not the space between them.

    You said that the film was dishonest. It was the best documentary film for that year so there are a lot of people very easy to “con”.

    Who says? It had to pay people to go and watch it and only grossed $7.7m where as Sicko the previous year grossed $33.5m . I hope you didn’t pay.

    I KNOW all those evolutionists lied in the movie, case closed!

    Give me just one example to respond to. Obviously, I cannot reply to such a wild general allegation.

    Whether we are talking about the bones from monkey to man, the moths, the embryos, horse evolution has been shot down, the drawings of a complete monkey man with his family included and they did that wonderful artwork from just a pig’s tooth.

    Nebraska Man? One scientist made a postulation which the science community never accepted and quickly rejected.

    Ted Haggard is a lying homosexual therefore Christianity is false. Same silly logic.

    @John, And according to your religion, “evolution” bearing false witness is not a sin, correct?”

    I’m not sure how it could bear false witness. Some scientists lie about their work but science finds them out.

    Show me the problems or the untruth, get you focus off the poople and deal with the issues.

    I did, but you ignored my response.

    You are probably right that “evolution” will kill me, it has been the reason to justify murder, killing all over the world for years and years and years.

    You are confusing euthanasia with the fact of evolution.

    Hitler, Mussolini, and a ton of other evolutionists have used evolution as a means to kill the unfit, …..

    The general rule is that the first person to mention Hitler loses the debate – so you just lost.

    The Nazis used to burn Darwin’s books and there isn’t a single mention of Darwin or the theory of evolution in Mein Kampf. He mentions God a lot, though and I am not aware that the Nazis used to burn the bible.

    I don’t know much about Mussolinni – he was a catholic, wasn’t he? Certainly many of the Catholic party joined the fascists when the Vatican disbanded the party and Mussolini did create the Vatican state.

    Sanger, the founder or Planned Parenthood. John, a question, what would you think if they wanted to use me and other Christians as guinea pigs? Be honest with me, would it be a big deal to you? Just curious,”

    A guinea pig for what? Don’t you believe in responsible parenthood?

    I base my life on my God, he has brought me through time and time again and I do not believe that he is going to let me down as I go to him in faith.

    I also brought up Corey in my teaching sharing why I told him that I would rather die trusting in God than die trusting in doctors. I was sharing how based on statistics that approx 120,000 people die from using legal drugs and around 90,000 die from improper care in hospitals and the like.

    We have hospitals in the first place because God isn’t very good at answering prayer. If you crushed your leg in an accident I’m sure that you would prefer to be taken to hospital rather than pray about it.

    I asked you about the online book and you once again decided it wasn’t worth reading because it was written by a 7 Day Adventist.
    No, I didn’t reject his book because of his religious views but because of his nonsensical “science.”

    John, Here it is again, your “matter of fact” attitude. You know it all or maybe most of the all.

    Danny, if some-one tells you that if you stand in the middle of the road you will never be run down by a truck it isn’t arrogance to point out that such an opinion, based on contrary evidence, may be wrong. The ebook was demonstrable tripe but you don’t seem to have the wit to discern even the most obvious errors and misrepresentations.

    You hardly ever deal with the issues, you just make one liners that are usually cuts or one lines like you have been doing with me in this post and your last one. You supply no proof for you statements but they are correct, you said them so they must be.

    All the stuff I write is easy to check. I could give plenty of links to assist but the sidebar says that we are not allowed to do so. Take it up with Eric.

    But rather than waffling and whining, give me an example of something I have written which you can show is untrue and I’ll respond to it. But keep it short and hit the Return key occasionally – it makes things easier to read.

    You said that you didn’t like his nothingness comment condensing into a single tiny dot and decided to explode. I showed you again using David Darling that evolutionists believe it Since you talked like he was speaking total nonsense in regards to what evolutionists believe then you tell me.

    A couple of days ago I recommended 3 books which describe modern cosmological thinking. Have you read any of them or, indeed, any mainstream book on science?

    John, you figure out your problem. I already know how it all came into being, by an all knowing, all powerful God who spoke it into existence. I don’t understand why in the natural that you can’t see it.

    Because the idea of God “speaking” things into existence is incoherent. To speak implies a mouth, lungs, air and ears. A mouth also implies food and drink. Now would what God be doing with a mouth?

    But if you agree that “speaking” as used in Gen.1 is a figurative expression I’m Ok with it even if it doesn’t explain how things actually happened the way they did.

    You speak it like ever so many evolutionists have in many articles that I have read by them over the years, “we think, it probably happened, it might have been like this, we believe, we are fairly sure. NOW you are telling me what cosmologists “suspect”. Most of the things they thought, believed, figured, guessed have been wrong so this will just be another notch on their belt, so to speak.

    Sounds reasonable to me. The history of science is the history of the gradual overturning of supernaturalism. If you want to believe that the universe just popped into existence ready-made with trees and butterflies and talking snakes then that is your right. Personally, I think the real explanations are more subtle and far more interesting.

    Tell me what you think of the big bang and where life came from, etc. AND if you do NOT know then don’t be jumping down creationists’ throats because they want you to know.

    Despite the physical evidence?

    There is something that John DOESN’T know. WOW!

    Actually, there are two or three things. :-)

    Well, in closing the old John we have grown to know and love on CSE blogs is back. NOW you KNOW that NO human being ever saw a live stegosaur.

    HOW do you KNOW that John? Even if someone gave you absolute proof that they lived side by side you would deny it SINCE YOU KNOW that NO human ever saw a live stegosaur. You probably can’t see that most everything you say, you base on your belief system since you live by faith as all of us do.

    I knew that would get you riled.

    The reason I know it is because the only evidence we have of such animals comes from deep down underground and creationists haven’t yet come up with a rational theory to get them there. Noah’s Flood won’t do it because flood water doesn’t erode rock. So where does all that sediment come from? And when you’ve answered that tell me where the White Cliffs of Dover come from (and don’t say Kent). And when you’ve done that tell me….. etc etc.

    .

  34. Pablo Cruz April 18, 2011 at 4:14 pm #

    Hi, John. You responded to my comment of the petroglyph.

    You’ve asked how the image was made. It is described as “pecking”.

    You wrote:
    “It seems very small and I assume it was caused by some unskilled youngster sitting on somebody’s shoulders and hitting at the rock with a smaller rock. That it looks like anything at all is a bit of a miracle.”

    The only reason you believe its a miracle is because you’ve convinced yourself of your own assumptions as truth.

    Historically, man has drawn, carved, pecked, etc.., and they still exist and it shouldn’t be deemed as a miracle.

    You assume it was a youngster? Once again, you’re preconceived ideology is not only blinding you, but also disrespecting Native Americans.

    I’m no Native American expert, and obviously you aren’t either. However, in dealing with this petroglyph, the scientists should’ve conducted research to include native americans and their well known symbols and there meanings. If they did, the scientists who conducted observation would not have claimed that the petroglyph is a snake.

    They’re preconceived, biased ideology was a hinderance to scientific observation. Therefore, they were unsuccessful in debunking creationists.