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How I Know God Exists?

As we street witness, we often notice that Christians have a very hard time defending their faith. Many stutter, trip over their words, or have long, awkward silences. When caught of guard, our reasoning for our belief in God may be “I just have faith” or “that’s how I was raised.” We think that we need to be able to give better answers than that.

A couple months ago, we decided to create an opportunity for our online community to use our resources, learn how to give a great defense, and answer the question, “How do you know that God exists?” So, we turned it into a contest. The person with the best one-minute video answer won a great collection of CSE resources. More than just a contest, however, we found that it provided a great opportunity to teach about evangelism. We announced the finalists in a special webcast. Check it out to see the great videos and get practical tips that will help you share your faith.

The first-place winner, Sharon Chimere-Dan, submitted a creative video in the form of a poem. In it, she hit on all three apologetic arguments: personal experience (experiential), natural evidence of God (evidential), and presuppositional (the idea that you can’t know anything apart from God). Her poem provides an excellent answer to the question, “How do you know that God exists?”

How I Know God Exists?

You mean besides His miracles
And fulfilled prophecies
And all He’s shown and done
For many people
And for me

Or how about Jesus
Proven prophet, healer, God is man
Through Him it was revealed
That all things run as per God’s plan

Disciples who endured torture
And were sentenced to die
Would not have done it
Knowing well that Jesus was a lie

He’s all around
Proving Him is like trying to prove the light
Take God out and everything goes dark
As black as night

From death to life
Sunset to sunrise
And written on my heart
Ultimate cause, physical laws
In all, God shows His part

Human desire for something higher
His Words alone ring true
I can’t say God does not exist
I can’t see it
Can you?

—Sharon Chimere-Dan

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Leave39 Responses to testHow I Know God Exists?

  1. Eric Hanley December 10, 2010 at 9:25 am #

    Great question.How do I know god exists?One of my favorite answers is found in the question,what makes the Bible “Holy”?The answer is in the infallible record of prophecy concerning Isriel.I am constantly hearing those who do not believe in the Bible say that it is impossible to trust in the scriptures because so many, over thousands of years, have been involved in translation.They say human error and political greed have tainted the record.The truth is god has spoken through prophets and apostles concerning the nation of Isriel and when studied with an objective approach there is no doubt.Everything you see today happening in the news has already been predicted.Everything that has happened before to Isriel has been foretold.As a matter of fact,who can deny that the whole world is burdened over God’s Holy land?

  2. Michael Fisher December 10, 2010 at 9:26 am #

    . . .besides His miracles . . .

    Oh, you mean the little stories in the bible that read like any other Bronze Age mythology from the ANE.
    Sorry, but I’m not buying the old Hebrew myths anymore than I accept the equally old notion that a menstruating woman’s mere glance is capable of withering a field of wheat.
    The actual physical of evidence for either is zero.

    . . .fulfilled prophecies. . .
    When you’re WRITING after the fact to tell the story it is simplicity itself to have a character in the story predict what you already know in fact happened.
    You DO realize, your brain DOES work, that the bible stories were all written down AFTER the fact?

    . . .Proven prophet, healer. . .
    All the comments above are applicable. People rising from the dead and miraculous healings were a dime a dozen in antiquity.

    . . .God is man. . .
    Now that really would be a neat ontological trick. The infinite become finite, the necessarily existing becoming merely contingent.
    Those are called logical contradictions.
    If you allow logical contradictions into your thought, you can neither prove nor disprove anything — or you can prove anything at all.
    In short, it becomes impossible to think, to reason, to KNOW anything at all.

    . . .Disciples who endured torture. . .
    Yeah, well, uncountable nubmers of people have endured torture for their beliefs – good and bad — throught history. The disciples get no special points for (assuming it happened, a fact not in evidence) themselves enduring what so many others have endured for their own reasons.

    . . .I can’t see it. . .
    Given that you’ve based your entire philosophy/theology/whatever you want to call it on mythology and self contradictory axioms, that’s not a surprise.

    Of course, actually thinking for yourself is a bit scary.

    mike

  3. Alfred Russell Wallace December 10, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    >>>>When caught of guard, our reasoning for our belief in God may be “I just have faith” or “that’s how I was raised.” We think that we need to be able to give better answers than that.

    So in other words, you want these people to lie about how they came to become Christian. Isn’t faith enough? What if the only reason they do believe is that they were raised in Christianity?

    How could you want people to lose their immortal soul just so that they can have a better rebuttal to non-believers.

    How dare CSE ruin the lives of its followers, by denying them Paradise in the sky.

  4. Jeff Brace December 10, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    Proof of God and creation is all around us. Those who would deny it simply want to be their own God with no accountability accept unto themselves. The reasoning put forth in the earlier posts is a perfect example of this. Not even logical reasoning. I hope and pray you gentlemen get your wake up call before it’s too late. God bless :)

  5. Kenneth Tyner December 10, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    @Michael Fisher,

    Truth and myth are not synonymous. Myth is usually based on some truth, but no truth is ever based on myth. Your belief is not what separates truth from myth.

    The weight of prophecy is the foretelling of future events. Otherwise it would not be prophetic. It is well known and established truth that coming of Christ was foretold hundreds of years before he came into the world. Daniel even told us of the time in which Christ would come, and that he would be cut off (put to death), and Daniels writing are known to be 500 years before the coming of Jesus Christ.

    The rising of people from the grave was never taught in antiquity by any other people from the Jews. Even among them there was dispute about this issue.

  6. Tim Matter December 10, 2010 at 5:47 pm #

    When I was younger I believed in Young Earth Creationism. As I learned more, the evidence seemed to favor an old earth so I moved to theistic evolution. Then the writings of YEC’s convinced me there was no room in Genesis for millions of years so became a staunch Young Earther.
    Later I took a vacation out west, saw all the rock layers, petrified forest, Dinosaur National Monument and something told me “This didn’t happen in 6000 years”. I studied Noah’s Ark and flood geology from 100 different angles and realized without a doubt the story was wrong. That wasn’t the way it happened.
    The last straw was learning about the thin iridium layer, the K/T boundary, at a certain layer in the geologic column, all over the earth. Supposedly it was the result of a massive meteor strike that killed the dinosaurs. Surely Noah’s flood couldn’t explain how a thin layer of meteor dust ended up deposited in just a thin layer, instead of mixed in, during a flood that was grinding mountains into powder.
    I looked in the Creationist websites. They said the K/T layer PROVED Noah’s flood. Suddenly it became clear which side was telling the truth, and it wasn’t who I expected. That realization started a landslide as I examined and discovered more and more of what I was told was true, was not. It’s not that I just lost my faith. I realized much of what I was taught can not be true and I have to be honest. I might not have ended up where I am if The church could adapt a little when new discoveries show some teachings to be wrong.
    The inflexibility of requiring belief in YEC to be a Christian is going to drive more people from the church as more of them have the courage to recognize the threats of hell for what they are, and figure out the truth for themselves.

  7. Wesley Bivens December 10, 2010 at 9:46 pm #

    I am sorry, as stated I am new to your blog and neglected to read your rules prior to posting. I apologize for posting the link. I am reposting my comment here without the link, so you can delete the prior post.

    “I have just recently started following our blog, and love it. I disgust me reading 95% of your comments however. Yes, the folks with objections should have a right to voice their questions and comments, but questions should not go unanswered, as I see them doing a majority of the time. As far as people posting their own views, other than a brief statement, should not be done on here but they should start their own blog and stop using yours. Just my opinion.

    Now Mr. Fisher, Any serious research will reveal that Jesus was indeed a historical figure, and as stated by Dr. Geisler:

    “The primary sources for the life of Christ are the four Gospels. However there are considerable reports from non-Christian sources that supplement and confirm the Gospel accounts. These come largely from Greek, Roman, Jewish, and Samaritan sources of the first century. In brief they inform us that:

    1. Jesus was from Nazareth
    2. he lived a wise and virtuous life;
    3. he was crucified in Palestine under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tibrius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish King;
    4. he was believed by his disciples to have been raised from the dead three days later;
    5. his enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats they called ’sorcery’;
    6. his small band of disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading even as far as Rome;
    7. his disciples denied polytheism, lived moral lives, and worshiped Christ as Divine.

    This picture confirms the view of Christ presented in the New Testament Gospels.” (Geisler, Norman L. Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1998 p384-385) “

  8. Stephen Holshouser December 11, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    Michael Fisher,

    You said,
    “. . .fulfilled prophecies. . .
    When you’re WRITING after the fact to tell the story it is simplicity itself to have a character in the story predict what you already know in fact happened.
    You DO realize, your brain DOES work, that the bible stories were all written down AFTER the fact?”

    The Old Testament prophecies are verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls to be written well before the time of their New Testament fulfillments. This is just a fact that is even confirmed by secular historians. I would challenge you to read Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, written 800 to 1000 years before Jesus was born, and then read the Gospel of John. These are just 2 of a great many areas of fulfilled prophecy. It will be amazing to anyone that doesn’t already have their mind made up.
    —————————————————————————————–

    You said,
    “. . .God is man. . .
    Now that really would be a neat ontological trick. The infinite become finite, the necessarily existing becoming merely contingent.
    Those are called logical contradictions.
    If you allow logical contradictions into your thought, you can neither prove nor disprove anything — or you can prove anything at all.
    In short, it becomes impossible to think, to reason, to KNOW anything at all.”

    You misunderstand the teaching of scripture; Jesus NEVER became finite… He simply took on the form of man that He might suffer death for us… He was still Almighty God, yet totally man. He could not have taken what we deserved if He did not become man. I’m not saying you or I will be able to fully grasp that… but He is God, He can do what He wants whether we understand it or not.
    ————————————————————————————————-

    You said,
    “. . .Disciples who endured torture. . .
    Yeah, well, uncountable nubmers of people have endured torture for their beliefs – good and bad — throught history. The disciples get no special points for (assuming it happened, a fact not in evidence) themselves enduring what so many others have endured for their own reasons.”

    Again, you misunderstand the point; These disciples were eyewitnesses of Jesus after His resurrection… they touched Him, talked with Him, ate with Him, for many days after He was crucified and buried. They would not have died KNOWING they were lying. Sure, many thousands have died for lies that they believed… that is altogether different than willingly dying and/or being tortutred for a lie that you know is a lie… no one does that. Do you understand the significance of the deaths of the disciples now?
    ————————————————————————————————

    You said previously,
    “I have to start teaching in 10 minutes so that’s all for now.”

    Please let it be water aerobics or shop class or something that doesn’t have much affect on the learners’ minds!

  9. Brentonio Madawick December 12, 2010 at 12:05 am #

    everybody knows that God exists, you guys are using logic, to argue against God, you guys are actually borrowing the foundations of logic from GOD’s WORLDVIEW.

    IN THESE ABOVE ARGUMENTS MICHAEL AND ERIC, you have just been unmasked, and everyone reading your arguments, can see that

    you are basing your reasoning, and logic on our worldview, by using them, and they SAYING THAT OUR WORLDVIEW IS INCORECT??

    what worldview do you guys have that justifies knowledge and the logic arguments your using? NONE WILL ACCOUNT FOR WHY WE HAVE LOGIC OR THAT WE USE IT.

    Your arguments show that you believe in God (Romans 1 :18-20) becuase you are using logic and this can only be accounted for from the God of the Bible’s worldview. BUT THIS ALSO SHOWS U ARE SUPPRESSING THE STANDARD (God of the Bible), this truth that is univeral, immaterial, and unchanging, (logic/God of the Bible) and FOLLOWING THE LUSTS OF YOUR HEART and not wanting to follow him or want to know him.

  10. Brentonio Madawick December 12, 2010 at 12:11 am #

    THE ONLY WORLDVIEW THAT ACCOUNTS FOR THE LOGIC YOU USED TO ARGUE AGAINST ABSOLUTE TRUTH, CREATOR, JESUS CHRIST, GOD OF THE BIBLE…… IS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. HE IS THE ONLY ABSOLUTE TRUTH AND IS THE CREATOR OF LOGIC. THAT IS IT. NO OTHER WORLDVIEW ACCOUNTS FOR LOGIC, MORALITY, OR SCIENCE. HE IS CONSTANT, AND BEYOND ALL TIME SPACE AND MATTER AND LOVES YOU. FOLLOW HIM. STOP FIGHTING.. STOP SUPPRESSING HIM, HE IS THE ONLY WORLDVIEW THAT ACCOUNTS FOR THIS REASON, NO OTHER ONE DOES. HE is the only Truth.

  11. Don Carr December 12, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    What keeps entropy in check?

    Would entropy not just feed on itself faster and faster until nothing could ever come into existence – millions of years ago…

    What keeps evil in check?

    Were evil not a lesser subset of some other system would evil not just grow to consume everything until nothing could evr come into existence – millions of years ago…

  12. Mark James December 12, 2010 at 5:01 pm #

    Hi Alfred,

    You have very subtly twisted Erics words. He is not asking for reasons why people became Christians but for reasons why they believe.

    I started down the path to becoming a Christian sitting in a darkened room listening to my 4 year old son breathing. He was sound asleep with no control (as if he ever had any) over whatever was keeping him alive. My scientific background told me that this incredible miracle was the result of millions of unguided chemical reactions and I finally realised that I could no longer believe it.

    This will always be the reason I became a Christian but it was just the start of my journey of faith and is now only a small part of why I believe.

    Most atheists would not be able to give a reason for why they are an atheist. ‘I just don’t believe’ is the usual response. When pressed to give a better answer, most will try to change the subject. Some might quote what they learned in school about the big bang and evolution but, from my experience, when questioned further they have no real understanding of the theories they are using to support their unbelief.

    The real difference here is that Christians are encouraged to grow in their faith and to always have a reason for the hope that is within them.

  13. John Bebbington December 13, 2010 at 10:02 am #

    Don Carr wrote: “What keeps entropy in check?”

    Gravity, mainly. And plenty of thick loft insulation.

    “Would entropy not just feed on itself faster and faster until nothing could ever come into existence – millions of years ago…”

    That depends on whether or not you understand what entropy is. Entropy can no more feed on itself than 3 pounds of lemons. It’s a silly question.

    “What keeps evil in check?”

    Birth control and an efficient police force. How much evil would exist in the universe if all human life was suddenly extinguished? Evil is simply a human construct.

    “Were evil not a lesser subset of some other system would evil not just grow to consume everything until nothing could evr come into existence – millions of years ago…”

    It’s difficult to answer a question which contains no sensible content.

  14. Alfred Russell Wallace December 13, 2010 at 11:17 am #

    >>>Most atheists would not be able to give a reason for why they are an atheist.

    I’ll give you a few.

    1. There is absolutely no evidence for theism. Theists are making the claim, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I reject these claims because there is no evidence.

    2. Believing in an external agency is what I would expect from our human psychology. We tend to anthropomorphize anything we lack understanding of. Example, believing in Zeus when we did not understand lightning. Believing that “someone” created the universe instead of a natural process. Believing that “someone” created us, without understanding the bottom-up process of natural selection.

    3. The idea of specific religions being right while the rest are wrong is an arrogant and solipsistic notion. You are an atheist when it comes to every other religion in existence. Just remember that, NONBELIEVER!!!!

    4. If Yahweh, the God of the bible existed, I would not respect him. He does not meet my moral standards. When the Ark of the covenant was being lauded around the town of Beth Shemesh, a small group of people wanted to see it and praise yahweh. Your god became very angry because they were not supposed to look at the Ark. What did he do? He killed and tortured the people who looked at it, and murdered 50,000 innocent people in Beth Shemesh for what they had done. Now, that is historically impossible given that there were only a few thousand people in Beth Shemesh at that time. However, I do not accept your God as a moral being. He doesn’t meet my own standard which I have acquired through reason and from the natural process of my brain like Empathy and compassion for others.

    that’s just a few, I have plenty more.

  15. Rene Mulder December 13, 2010 at 12:33 pm #

    Honestly, when I look at these video’s I just hear echoes of the various seminars and teachings I’ve also seen on this and various other websites.
    There is a danger in simply drumming up what you’ve learned (this goes for any belief), especialy when it comes to ‘scientific’ and ‘technical’ arguments, namely that the moment you’re challenged to answer deeper questions on the subject matter at hand, you’re going to find your knowledge on the subject is rather lacking.

    You may impress some people with your supposed scientific knowledge, but the moment you fail to answer the deeper questions, you look just as silly as someone who might say “I just have faith”.
    You’d then have to keep up with said scientific subject and study it deeper to avoid looking silly, but then what do you do when someone brings up a different scientific topic? And another? And another?

    In the end, you’ll want someone to believe the God of the Bible is the real God. You may convince someone trough a scientific argument that at least their world view is flawed, but that doesn’t garantuee they’ll accept the bible and the God described in it.

    If you can’t convince someone of God’s existence through the bible itself, how do you expect a person to accept the bible after having convinced someone using means other than that bible?
    If you even can convince anyone…

    I honestly hope that the young believers who view the content of this website don’t just fill any lack of justification of their belief they may have with ready-made “knowledge” (like certain scientific or philosophical arguments) . This could effectively create a false conviction that, when pierced by challenge, may leave a huge mark on the security of their belief, if that belief was not strengthened by proper means i.e the bible, the Spirit etc.

    I also hope my concern is unwarranted, and that young believers are smarter than that :)
    We need to give the tools, not the end product.

  16. Brentonio Madawick December 13, 2010 at 10:29 pm #

    evil is immaterial, no one can keep, define evil, everyone is evil

    everyone has lied, cheated, stolen, …etc. each person has and will do one of these things,

    This classifies you as a sinner if you do these things:

    so police man are sinners, and they pull people over for breaking a man made law of the speed limit. this is 1 evil person pulling over 1 evil person under the man made law.

    Everyone is under the law of their man made governments

    BUT EVERYONE IN THE PAST AND FUTURE HAVE BEEN ARE AND WILL BE UNDER GOD’S LAWS. IN HIS INHERENTLY PERFECT BIBLE!

    NO ONE CAN ESCAPE THE LAW OF GOD. ALL WILL BE JUDGED. GOD ALLOWS EVIL TO HAPPEN, HE HATES IT, BUT SATAN IS ON A LEASH AS A DOG WOULD BE, AND PEOPLE HAVE THE CHOICE TO FOLLOW CHRIST AND BE SAVED, THUS BEING MADE PERFECT BY THE GRACE OF CHRIST, OR FOLLOW SATAN, (FLESH AND REMAIN A SINNER IN GOD’S EYES AND KEEPING ON THE PATH TO HELL)

    NO ONE CAN STOP EVIL, OR RIGHTEOUSNESS TOTALLY, ONLY GOD HAS SOVEIRGN POWER OVER ALL, time space and matter. SOME CAN BLOCK IT OR DO THIS OR THAT, BUT ULTIMATELY EVERYTHING IS IN GODS HAND, ALL MATER TIME AND SPACE!

  17. Don Carr December 14, 2010 at 9:28 am #

    Evreything tends to something. Calculus teaches that.

    This universe would tend to not exist if it were not for some “Godly” input (or perhaps extraction- in terms of the return of the Heavenly Host).

    And if the universe were to tend not to exist, we would not exist because it would have tended to not exist… millions of years ago…(pun intended).

    Re: evil. A little levin spoils the whole batch. Without God (YHWH) the universe would rot, maybe the infection would spread to other universes and rot them too, eventually infecting God himself, causing God to rot and die. If God were to rot and die we would all be dead. (parable of spending of inheritance becomes exposed along those lines of thinking – we’re cut off (from the axiatonal trunkline- so as not to infect others)

    So if we’re not dead, it is the result of a system that trumps entropy and evil. Call it God.

    “I breathe, therefore God exists.” (Descartes?- pun intended)

    So our existence points to some form of God. We seem to contend with God, trying to get him to do what we want. Eventually we tire of the resistance and begin to do what we’re told.

    So an athiest is still trying to get the world to conform to the desires of their mind. We’ve all been there, still are… God is patient.

    Or athiests are just NWO agents paid to disrupt blogs so the content goes nowhere.

  18. David McCrea December 14, 2010 at 5:36 pm #

    Michael,

    Two thousand years from now folks will no doubt look back at us and make the same kind of condescending comments you do about the “Bronze Age” cretins. Maybe, just maybe, they were a little more knowledgeable and discerning about their world than you give them credit for.

    As for my response to Eric’s question: I know God exists because all things created had a Creator. There are no exceptions to this rule except God.

    There is more truth is those two sentences than all the information contained in all the science books published throughout time.

  19. Alfred Russell Wallace December 14, 2010 at 10:14 pm #

    >>>This universe would tend to not exist if it were not for some “Godly” input

    have you got ANYTHING to back up this claim?

  20. Alfred Russell Wallace December 14, 2010 at 10:21 pm #

    >>>>I know God exists because all things created had a Creator. There are no exceptions to this rule except God.

    Human beings were not designed in a Top-down way like you suggest, we evolved slowly from a bottom up process. We are designed based on natural selection, if you like.

    Lets look at your statement again…

    A PRIORI

    You have absolutely no reason to believe such a ridiculous statement.

    There are no exceptions to this rule except God?????

    Your God has a functional complexity, everything with a functional complexity requires a designer,
    your God requires a designer. There are no exceptions to natural laws, my friend.

  21. John Bebbington December 15, 2010 at 2:16 am #

    Don Carr wrote: “Evreything tends to something. Calculus teaches that.”

    Not in the Northern hemisphere. Calculus teaches no such thing; indeed, it is not even constructed for such a purpose; it is a computational tool.

    However, other branches of maths show that some sequences converge and some do not. Some functions within a limited and defined range may converge to a fixed value, some may be completely random and others may tend to a number of values.

  22. John Bebbington December 15, 2010 at 4:08 am #

    David McCrea wrote: “Two thousand years from now folks will no doubt look back at us and make the same kind of condescending comments you do about the “Bronze Age” cretins.

    Undoubtedly – but we know we don’t know. And those to come after us are unlikely to disagree with our scientific findings in the same way that we do not disagree with Newton within the limits of the scientific equipment of his day. Our knowledge is based upon the evidence we have accumulated over time. As the evidence continues to grow our knowledge will increase and our understanding of the universe will change – except for that of YECists.

    “Maybe, just maybe, they were a little more knowledgeable and discerning about their world than you give them credit for.”

    It was a very small world. What worked for them would not work for us. Even Paul knew that 2,000 years ago which is why he had to change the rules.

    “I know God exists because all things created had a Creator. There are no exceptions to this rule except God.”

    So you think. But who created your thoughts?

  23. Alex M December 15, 2010 at 10:58 am #

    Assuming the universe has a creator is a fallacy by association. It goes like this:
    “Everything inside the universe has been created. Therefore the universe has been created”

    Attributing the universe a property held by everything it contains is fallacious. To show why, I’ll give two similar “proofs”
    “All of my cells have no consciousness, therefore I have no consciousness”
    “Everyone in England was born, therefore England was born”

    Of course England was not literally born of another continent, like all its inhabitants have. This is why it is fallacious to make such an argument by association.

    Furthermore, there are many things that don’t have a creator. Waves, the Wind, thunder, solar promenances, Black holes, earthquakes, rain and many other PROCESSES do not have a creator, thus making the first point not an absolute truth, but a part of a variety of possibilities.

  24. John Bebbington December 15, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    Jeff Brace wrote: “John Bebbington – Your statement defies your own words.”

    Which statement?

    “Are you not trying to do the same thing.”

    What thing? I’m not very good at guessing.

    “I have plenty of solid evidence that the Bible is truth.”

    And I have plenty that says it isn’t – but let’s agree to differ.

    “Why would you care if I did not believe as you do?”

    I don’t. But then you don’t believe as most other Christians. In evidence of that statement you might like to read an article entitled “Among the Evangelicals” in the “Review” section of this week’s “The Chronicle of Higher Education”. I also suggest that you speak to your Pastor about what he learned about the truth of the Bible in seminary. If he is honest with you, you might be shocked.

    Still waiting for your comments on the Lost Squadron.

  25. Jeff Brace December 15, 2010 at 2:15 pm #

    John Beddington – You know very well which statement. Are you not trying to convince us there is no God? So why are you here. If you are evolved and there is nothing when you are finished here why would you care that I believe in a God? Don’t say you don’t. Your every word shows your complete contempt of the subject. You are here in most every topic making what you think is a mockery of that topic.
    I did not see anything about a Lost Squadron. I only read the threads while they are open. When they are closed I move to the next one. If it was in another tread it probably would not come to bear in this thread anyway.

  26. Monica Weimer December 15, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Unbelievers, lost, even professing “Christians” can not know or understand the existence of God until they know Him personally. They can by choice believe that He exist and even created the universe but without the faith they do not know Him personally. I know George W. Bush exist, I even know of some of his work. I’ve heard about him, but not ever meeting him in person, I do not know him. Same anology of God existance to the saved and the lost. Athiests choose to not believe in a creator God, they heard about God, even heard of His works.

    Before I was saved, I believed like many professing “Christians” who will say in that day “Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Jesus will say to them, “I never knew you, depart from me, ye that worketh iniquity”. Matt. 7:22-23 They think they know God?! At least scoffers are being honest in saying that they do not believe that God exists. Professing believers know OF Him but will not know Him personally until they understand the preaching of the cross, sin, judgement, righteousness and forgiveness.

    I grew up in church knowing the fundementals and basic Biblical doctrines which had formed my beliefs but I was not saved until years later. Two answers for how I know that God exist, 1. He forgave me, being forgiven I am no longer under the condemnation of my sins. 2. He gave me the gift of faith to believe, learn, grow, study, be taught by the Holy Ghost rightly diviging the Word of truth. I could never do theses things myself. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This verse does apply to the lost.

    The mere fact that I had always believed is not what would save me as most believe, give or take traditions (works). Rom. 5:1 being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as GOD HATH DEALT to every man the measure of faith.

    Faith is the gift given to the believer at the moment of salvation. Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.

    Faith is the gift most do not understand for many think that belief and faith are one in the same, they are not. Therefore no point in even argueing with them. Anyone can believe even do many wonderful works in His Name (in vain). Many believe but are still perishing for the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.

    The free gift of faith is given by God at salvation, not mustered up in your mind or with human capabilities as many try to do, “believe and be saved”. Only born again believers can know that God exist. All others are either scoffers, athiests, unbelievers and “believers” who at least acknowledge a creator God but without faith. Beliefs can change. Faith does not change because truth does not change.

  27. David McCrea December 15, 2010 at 6:32 pm #

    Thank you Alfred, John and Alex for jumping in to voice your support for Michael and opposition to my post. Your responses were all predictably silly and nonsensical.

    Now waiting for Michael’s response, unless you three feel the need to defend him once again.

  28. Tim Matter December 15, 2010 at 8:43 pm #

    Jeff Brace – You asked ” Are you not trying to convince us there is no God? So why are you here. If you are evolved and there is nothing when you are finished here why would you care that I believe in a God? ”
    There is more to think about than just me. I still have the rest of my life to live, but after that my children, grand children, my country and the world that will still go on. They need to make decisions about the future based on the best information. Having been a Young Earth Creationist, and looking deeply into its claims and finding them undoubtedly to be false, I have to tell the truth to whoever will listen. If mistaken information goes into our decisions about the future, we will likely get the wrong answers. Garbage in, garbage out.

  29. Mark James December 15, 2010 at 10:06 pm #

    Hi Alfred,

    Obviously you are not to be included in the ‘most atheists would not be able to give a reason’ category, but then we both knew that already.

    Theism and atheism are opposite sides of the same coin – either there is a God or there isn’t, there is no ‘option 3’. So how does your reasoning stand up to scrutiny?

    1. “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

    Yes, theism makes extraordinary claims; the universe was created instantaneously from nothing; life was created instantaneously from a mixture of chemicals. But atheism makes exactly the same claims. The only difference is that I attribute it to God and you attribute it to chance. If you require extraordinary evidence for theism then you should require the same for atheism and on this basis you should reject atheism, too.

    2. “Believing in an external agency is what I would expect from our human psychology.”

    Believing in chance is what I would expect from human psychology, too. We humans don’t like being told what to do and given the choice of obeying Gods rules or following our own desires, we’ll come up with reasons to follow our desires.

    “…without understanding the bottom-up process of natural selection.”

    This is where I start to wonder if you are one of the atheists that don’t understand the scientific theories they quote. Natural selection does not cause evolution. All it does is select changes that have already happened. For evolution to happen there has to be a mechanism that adds discreet amounts of coherent information to the DNA. No such mechanism has ever been found and all beneficial mutations that we can find are the result of a loss of information.

    3. “You are an atheist when it comes to every other religion in existence.”

    Absolutely, and with good reason! There are four basic options; pantheism, deism, theism and materialism. Pantheism can be excluded on scientific grounds that we both agree on – the universe is not eternal. Deism assumes a god that created the universe and does nothing more but this doesn’t explain the amazing infusion of information, that is DNA, at some stage after creation. That leaves Theism and materialism and you know which way I lean with these two.

    There are only three ‘great’ Theistic religions; Islam, Judaism and Christianity. All three rely on the Old Testament but Islam rejects the Jews as the chosen people which is basically what the whole book is about, so Islam is out. (Islam also bears a striking resemblance to the religion of the antichrist in both the Old and New Testaments). The Jews got it right but missed the most important bit, just as the Old Testament predicted and the New Testament confirms (way beyond reasonable doubt). So I have no choice but to be a Christian.

    4. “If Yahweh, the God of the bible existed, I would not respect him. He does not meet my moral standards.”

    Ah, the attack on the Bible. The one piece of evidence we Christians have that is provably from outside our space time domain, and therefore a real threat to the atheistic world view, just has to be proved wrong. This time we have the moral standard argument – these moral standards of yours that started with pond scum and arose as a result of the death by natural causes of all your relatives (especially the ones that weren’t good enough) are just too high for God to achieve.

    Does what happened in Beth Shemesh seem fair? From a superficial reading of the text and a belief that this life is you’ve got, no. But the people of God knew the law as it pertained to the Ark of the Covenant and they were disobedient. They died physically. I would rather die in faith than live in unbelief and risk an eternity separated from God.

  30. Duane December 16, 2010 at 3:08 am #

    “THE ONLY WORLDVIEW THAT ACCOUNTS FOR THE LOGIC YOU USED TO ARGUE AGAINST ABSOLUTE TRUTH, CREATOR, JESUS CHRIST, GOD OF THE BIBLE…… IS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. HE IS THE ONLY ABSOLUTE TRUTH AND IS THE CREATOR OF LOGIC. THAT IS IT. NO OTHER WORLDVIEW ACCOUNTS FOR LOGIC, MORALITY, OR SCIENCE. HE IS CONSTANT, AND BEYOND ALL TIME SPACE AND MATTER AND LOVES YOU. FOLLOW HIM. STOP FIGHTING.. STOP SUPPRESSING HIM, HE IS THE ONLY WORLDVIEW THAT ACCOUNTS FOR THIS REASON, NO OTHER ONE DOES. HE is the only Truth.”

    If this isn’t convincing as to how dangerous and deluded Christianity is, I don’t know what is. This is one step from walking around with a sandwich board and a tin foil hat.

  31. John Bebbington December 16, 2010 at 3:24 am #

    Jeff wrote: “You know very well which statement. Are you not trying to convince us there is no God? ”

    Not at all. How could I possibly do that? I’ve no idea whether there is a god or not. There may be billions of them for all I know.

    “So why are you here. If you are evolved and there is nothing when you are finished here whywould you care that I believe in a God? Don’t say you don’t.”

    I don’t. You may believe whatever you wish but for me the universe looks just as I would expect if there were no God. Certainly, to my mind, there is no evidence of unpredictable interference with its workings.

    “You are here in most every topic making what you think is a mockery of that topic.”

    And so are you – especially when the subject turns to the subject of biological evolution which is my particular interest. For my part I write very little concerning theology except to point out obvious inconsistencies and errors. But Eric, who owns the blog, is at liberty to ban me whenever he wishes. Generously, he allows me to participate even though at times I am quite rude to him but as he is constantly banishing me and my like-thinking chums to hell I think this is fair enough. At least, I do not engage in the sort of extremely cruel and vicious insults which I find reserved in conversations between believers on other blogs.

    “I did not see anything about a Lost Squadron. I only read the threads while they are open.”

    How convenient. May I suggest that you go back through the topics and do your research. To recap: You asked me for an old age earth proof. I referred you to the simple case of ice-core investigations in Greenland. In reply, you rehashed Kent’s anecdote about the Lost Squadron. Geno and I then pointed out in some detail how Kent had been either dishonest or disingenuous in his minimal “research” of the subject and invited your response. You did not reply.

    So, following your invitation, I have gone to the trouble of giving you a proof of my position and you have chosen to ignore it. Rather than this endless discussion as to why you haven’t responded why don’t you just address the subject? If Eric doesn’t like it he can ban our posts. But if he does, I’ll invite him to introduce a post dedicated to the Lost Squadron as I am sure he would like to get to the bottom of the matter as well.

  32. andrew Ryan December 16, 2010 at 7:08 am #

    Jeff Brace: “If you are evolved and there is nothing when you are finished here why would you care that I believe in a God?”

    That’s a non sequitur. What has possible non-existence after death got to do with what one cares about when one is alive? If you think that one should care LESS about something if you don’t believe in life after death, could you please explain your logic?

    Can you think of anything that gets LESS valuable when it becomes scarcer? I can’t. If life is short, then that makes it MORE valuable, not less, and therefore how one spends that life becomes more important. So yes, I care that I believe as many true things as possible and as few false things. And I believe that life would be better for everyone if they believed as many true things as possible too.

  33. Jeff Brace December 16, 2010 at 9:31 am #

    Andrew – if there is nothing to live for accept your world view – survival of the fittest, what’s the point.

  34. John Bebbington December 16, 2010 at 10:13 am #

    Mark wrote: “This is where I start to wonder if you are one of the atheists that don’t understand the scientific theories they quote. Natural selection does not cause evolution. All it does is select changes that have already happened. For evolution to happen there has to be a mechanism that adds discreet amounts of coherent information to the DNA. No such mechanism has ever been found and all beneficial mutations that we can find are the result of a loss of information.”

    Mark, you are wrong. Evolution is not the mutation of the genome in any particular individual organism. The species evolves when a beneficial mutation becomes fixed within the breeding population.

    As for “coherent information” first you need to define the term. If you are able to do so I give you my hearty congratulations as you will be the first YECist to even attempt the challenge.

    I write as it is starting to get dark. How clever of the sun to inform me by dipping behind the trees that it is getting late.

  35. Alfred Russell Wallace December 16, 2010 at 12:17 pm #

    Mark James,

    1. “Yes, theism makes extraordinary claims; the universe was created instantaneously from nothing; life was created instantaneously from a mixture of chemicals. But atheism makes exactly the same claims.”

    Absolutely not. Our universe was created from a natural process (the big bang), this did not happen out of “nothing” in the colloquial term. Dark matter and quantum fluctuations produced the big bang.

    Life was created instantaneously from a mixture of chemicals? First of all, you are talking about abiogenesis, not evolution. Read up on it, there are many credible theories about the necessary nucleotides forming based on the old volcanic earth. However, these are still young theories and as such, we must be patient for better explanations. We should not fill in the gap with your desert god.

    Evolution has nothing similarly like an extraordinary claim. It happened. Evidence for it is everywhere, from dog-breeders, pigeon-fanciers, geology, embryology, genetics, cellular biology, chemistry, natural history, paleontology, and logic.

    The Darwinian process explains far more, and more practically than your belief that we were willed into existence using dust, in the case of males, and created from a male’s rib, in the females case.

    2. “Believing in chance is what I would expect from human psychology, too.”

    I completely disagree. We DON’T like to think things happen by chance. We prefer to think we are better than the rest of life on earth. We have something that makes us “divine”. We still poop like the rest of them, our farts smell just as bad. We are part of nature, just like the jellyfish, trees, and bacteria. People find these truths to be uncomfortable. They would rather be the product of a divine creation.

    Also, I may just point out that evolution does not happen by chance. It is a process guided by natural forces like environment, climatic shifts, sexual reproduction, and food sources. Hardly a roll of the dice like some creationists like to put it.

    3. “Does what happened in Beth Shemesh seem fair? From a superficial reading of the text and a belief that this life is you’ve got, no. But the people of God knew the law as it pertained to the Ark of the Covenant and they were disobedient. They died physically. I would rather die in faith than live in unbelief and risk an eternity separated from God.”

    Then sir, you frighten me. You would rather be the suicide pilot on 9/11 believing that you’re going to get your 72 virgins rather than the rational person on the plane trying to fight them to save innocent lives.

    This statement shows how twisted you have become as a result of your faith. You would rather be commanded to kill your neighbor for working on the Sabbath, than to risk your eternal life. I have never heard a more selfish thought. Yes, it’s all about you, don’t think. Don’t risk being separated from your divine paradise. Unbelievable.

    Faith kills. You can’t say the same for rational thought.

  36. Alfred Russell Wallace December 16, 2010 at 12:28 pm #

    Mark James,

    This is where I start to wonder if you are one of the theists that don’t understand the scientific theories they quote.

    “Natural selection does not cause evolution.”

    ?? Natural selection is the mechanism of evolution.

    “All it does is select changes that have already happened.”

    No. Please read any 9th grade science text about evolution before you try to argue with me.

    “For evolution to happen there has to be a mechanism that adds discreet amounts of coherent information to the DNA.”

    Yes, random mutations. Sexually or naturally selected, these mutations (NOT ALL MUTATIONS ARE DELETERIOUS) are propagated throughout the population if they prove beneficial.

    “No such mechanism has ever been found and all beneficial mutations that we can find are the result of a loss of information.”

    You can assert that if you like, but you’re dead wrong. Random mutations in the DNA of an animal, changing of the nucleotides (Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thymine), produce different genes… any of which could prove beneficial. I am sorry if you don’t understand, a mutation does not mean that the base-pair chemicals are lost. They change. I’ll give you that some mutations involve DNA code deletions, the majority are changes in the structure of A-T C-G pairs.

  37. Alfred Russell Wallace December 16, 2010 at 12:42 pm #

    To make this simpler for you Mark James,

    Imagine you have children.

    They are a combination of you and your wife’s DNA. Mutated together. This is called a mutation in the gene code. Does that mean that your kids will have genetic problems and are missing DNA information? No.

    You have only heard of the colloquial term of mutation, which you seem to think is only a negative process.

  38. andrew Ryan December 17, 2010 at 2:06 am #

    Jeff: “Andrew – if there is nothing to live for accept your world view – survival of the fittest, what’s the point.”

    I’ll assume you mean except rather than accept. Your post makes no sense. Who said that my worldview is just ‘survival of the fittest’, a phrase I doubt you understand. If you’re a Free Market Capitalist then you accept it too. At any rate, my worldview encompasses art, love, family and many other things worth living for. Sorry if you don’t have these things.

  39. Jeff Brace December 17, 2010 at 6:27 am #

    That was completely rediculous Alfred. Your twisty raod of definition is a farce. No one explains mutation this way except you I guess :)