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If God is perfect, why did He make an imperfect creation?

The Bible tells us that the Genesis creation was good. There was no sin and therefore no suffering or death. Why then did God give Adam and Even the ability to sin, knowing full well that they would sin and bring death and pain to the human race? Some believe that if Adam had been created without the ability to choose, then he would have been a robot. A father cannot make his children love him. They choose to love him because they have a free will. Others point out that humanity would never have seen the depth of the love of God, as displayed on the cross, unless Adam had sinned, and that fact could be one reason why God allowed sin to enter the world.

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Leave32 Responses to testIf God is perfect, why did He make an imperfect creation?

  1. Jeff Brace November 24, 2010 at 10:43 am #

    I am thankful that God and His plan for us is perfect. There are not enough words to express gratitude to our Living God.

  2. mitchell hup November 24, 2010 at 12:45 pm #

    God made this world knowing it would become imperfect. Don’t blame man, blame God. Man is not in control over God’s will. But, God also took responsibility for the imperfection by paying for our sins. If there was no imperfection… there could be no perfection. everything would just… be. I believe God allowed imperfection to occur to show that He is perfect to not just humanity…. but to all of the angles as well.

    Imperfection within humanity leads us to need to seek HIS perfection and salvation.

  3. Andrew Gibs November 24, 2010 at 1:52 pm #

    I love Dr Hovind’s answer to the question, and couldn’t have said it better myself.

    Just by asking this question people are blaming God for their problems. It’s long past time we take responsibility for our sins. It also seems to assume that the world as it is today is exactly what God created, and we should know this not to be true.

  4. mitchell hup November 24, 2010 at 3:05 pm #

    Andrew, God knew exactly what would happen to His creation. That is why He took the responsibility for sin on the cross.

  5. Don Carr November 24, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    I don’t have THE answer to that one.

    One hint to an answer is that without suffering what we are going through would be reduced to an intellectual exercise; virtually meaningless.

    Another: Adamic man is a new creation being taught “the ropes” by the good Son (Christ). Where there is a good Son there is also a bad Son (Lucifur). God loves all his children (infinite numbers); Christ, Adam and Lucifur alike. We are all subject to the Love and Correction of the Father. However, we must chase after and achieve the Image of YHWH, otherwise we will eventually be left to the devouring fire (Eshyouhod) that reduces eveything to fertilizer. Suffering could be viewed as a good motivation to avoid the fire.

    Universes are continually expanding and being devoured – as an eternal OPEN ENDED creation. Always something new to be harvested and sent to Melchizedek for the eternal banquet. There was a rebellion at the Elohim or Creator level where 1/3 of the creative farming contingent thought they would jump the line and become gods of their own creation. They were cut off from the Higher Light and are recycling what they can. Like the movie Matrix, we are batteries supplying energy to sustain the rebellion. That kind of system is doomed to collapse and Christ is here with an enormous Host to get us out before this place burns. He’s even trying to get the Lucifurians out.

    So – Jacob’s Ladder consists of consciousness steps. Like a ladder here, each step requires a conscious effort to climb, which may be perceived as pain and suffering.

    ULTIMATELY pain and suffering is NOT of the Divine. Guilt and sin are illusions put upon us by Lucifurian forces to enslave us. Any of us can and should learn to identify our own Lucifurian thoughts, and work to dislodge them by putting on the Mind of Christ via the Holy Spirit. We pass cross a “pain threshold” to be set free. It is the pain of guilt that traps us.

    Sorry for not having THE answer.

  6. Don Carr November 25, 2010 at 12:45 am #

    Most of us have been conditioned to see earth as the center of the universe. It is not. There are many universes of different types – a house of many mansions. Dark forces abound in the untamed wilds of many universes, yet there are safe havens or temples too. We are currently cut off from the temple worlds.

    Revelations 22:14,15 (NWT) Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority (to go) to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie. (This is not describing a place on earth)

    (We are currently on the outside, cut off from the pathways (gates) interconnecting the many great universes- our inheritance)

    Jumping back to Genesis 1:14 (NWT) And God went on to say: Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night; and they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and for years.

    (So the bible begins in a world of duality – with night and day)

    Revelations 21:23-25 (NWT) And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there.

    (The Higher heavens have no night, nor do they have death)

    So we are on a journey. Genesis begins in a “Son” universe where duality exists, so there are male and female. Adam and Eve were sent off to tame the wilds. Something went wrong, then this world was created to right that wrong. This is a Son universe in constant flux or constant creation. We are seeking the 5 trees of life (where 7×2 chakras and 5 helpers bodies of Light etc. are given to achieve this)

    The Heaven we seek is not in Genesis chapter 1. It is not even in this universe. This was a land to be seeded and harvested. The harvest is to be returned to Melchizeldeck – who is of the Father. In “Father” universes there is no duality, nor are there men and women.

    Ulitmately Adam existed (currently exists) sexless in the greater Heavens prior to being sent into this region (via DNA) where the sexes are required; so a book is missing prior to Genesis.

    In brief we live in an abnormal temporary world. Normal is living eterally in the presence of the Father. Evil exists beyond the protected boundaries of the temple. We are protected by our big brother, Christ Yeshua, until we grow up and are safe to travel outside the temple.

  7. Alfred Russell Wallace November 25, 2010 at 10:37 am #

    The human form is imperfect.

    Our vision is imperfect, we have a blind-spot directly in the centre of our field of vision. The reason, that is the one spot at the back of the eye that attaches to the optic nerve; consequently no photoreceptive cells there. We have extremely poor night vision, our rod-vision cells are not as numerous or robust as the cones used to see in daytime. Birds can see far greater detail than the human eye, an Octopus has better detail and colour vision than human beings. God must love octopi more than us.

    Because of our ancestry with fish-like creatures, (see fossil Tiktaalik, Neil Shubin) we are poorly adapted to walking and standing. The cartilage in our joints has been stretched to accommodate these functions. It’s the reason “we” as a species get arthritis and joint problems far more than other creatures. Another blunder.

    Another problem with the human form the cranial nerves below the brain; they are jumbled up like a heap of spaghetti. Sharks have all the cranial nerves we have, and they are actually patterned and pass directly to the proper brain structures. God must have thought they deserved a more elegant looking set of cranial nerves.

    Bonobos, our ape cousins, are similar to Chimpanzees except for one key difference. Due to competition from Gorillas, Chimps have a terrible way of life. They are a male-dominated species (not unlike our own) wherein the males beat the women, kill young chimps, and even kill one another over disputes. The only way to stop infanticide among the chimps is for each female to mate with each male. This way, he’s not sure if the child he’s beating is his own. Females have no power. Bonobos, by contrast, are female-dominated. They did live in lush jungle where food is available on the ground without competition. Bonobos spend their time forming pair bonds, playing around with one another, and living relatively peaceful lives. Women keep the men in check, subsequently there is no “war-like” behaviours, no infanticide, no beatings. If we as homo sapiens evolved more along the lines of Bonobos, we could have been a more peaceful species. God clearly wanted us to be fighting with one another over pieces of land and control over other human beings.

    I seriously hope some of you wake up from your creationist propaganda.

  8. Torsten Maekler November 25, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    The Bible also tells us that finally the creation was very good. Both, you Dr. Hovint and Dr. Veith are a must see for any christian. It is time to wake the world from it’s christian sleep. Keep up the good work.

  9. Caleb Fielding November 26, 2010 at 10:17 am #

    Please remember the Bible defines perfect differently than we do

    James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

    As we define perfect only God could be Perfect.

    Perfect strength would have to be all powerful
    Perfect knowledge would be all knowing
    Perfect placement would have to be all places
    etc

  10. Douglas Ives November 26, 2010 at 10:26 am #

    Is this the only way I can communicate with Dr. Hovind? I would like to discuss the Hovind Theory with him as I think that the debris from the fountains destroyed the Conopy and dumped all the snow and ice on the polls. I agree with Dr. Baugh that all debris ( comets, asteroids, etc.) in the solor system came from Earth when the surface ( top ten miles or so) of the
    planet exploded. I sure like to have had a moons eye view of that. It would have been sad but awsome. I could only have watched for a short time before I would have to run around to the dark side to keep from getting pulverized from rocks and Ice.
    I would love to discuss History, Geology, Physics, Engineering, Theology or anything else that requires ” The Two Headed Approach” with Brother Hovind. BIC, Douglas

  11. Michael Becerra November 26, 2010 at 10:36 am #

    I am very thankful for the free will our Father has provided for us. I am even more thankful for the redemption given to us through His Son Jesus Christ! Also, Kent, I have been following you since I first got saved back in September 2005 and am so thankful for brave men of God such as yourself in a hostile world whose god is the father of lies!

  12. Stephen Holshouser November 26, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    The last explanation Kent mentions is probably the right one… By God’s plan for the world, His love can be displayed as an act and not just in word.

    Sure, man has a free will to choose… he’s free to act exactly as his corrupt will and desires lead him to… the problem is that ALL men are born spiritually dead in sin and will NEVER choose God in and of themselves. (Romans 3:9-12)

    Jesus said it best in John 6:44 “No man can come unto Me except the Father which hath sent Me draw Him;”

    It is amazing grace on display that God would choose to save ANY of those that have willfully rejected Him, and loved that which destroys them(their sin), more than the Lord who gives them life. God owes us nothing, yet gives eternal life freely through the perfect life and sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.

    Is God at the mercy of our wills? If He is powerless to change the will of a sinner, you should start praying directly to the sinner for his salvation instead of praying for Lord to do a work in their heart.

    If you had a child that you loved more than yourself who had a fever or sickness that made him delirious to the point where he wanted to run out into traffic, would you set back and say, “I don’t want to interfere with his choice.. after all he’s not a robot.”? Of course not. You would stop him against his will, bring him inside and give him something for his fever. How much more does the Lord love His children than we love ours?

    This is what the Lord does for us. We are corrupted by our “sin-sick” nature, and are willfully choosing to serve sin and Satan. The Great Physician heals your will and gives you a new nature and regenerates your dead spirit. It is from His regenerating work in your heart that comes repentence of your sin and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ… without the Holy Spirit regenerating your heart, you will not repent or believe. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

    God doesn’t force you to love Him… He simply heals your corrupt soul and will so you willfully choose to love and serve Him. He has chosen the gospel as the means of our salvation and it is by the foolishness of preaching that men and women will be saved. (1 Corinthians 1:17-31)

    God gets ALL the glory from start to finish. You will not be able to say in heaven, “boy, I’m glad I was smarter than the people in hell and chose Jesus!” You will instead praise Him for the undeserved mercy and forgiveness that you received. He is, indeed, worthy of ALL worship!!

    Though the creation is fallen, the Lord knows what He is doing… (Romans 11:33-36)

  13. Stephen Holshouser November 26, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    Mitchell Hup said, “Andrew, God knew exactly what would happen to His creation. That is why He took the responsibility for sin on the cross.”

    Where did you get that? Chapter and verse please. YOU and I are the only ones “responsible” for OUR sin. God answers to no one and owes us nothing. He never “took the responsiblity” for sin… however, He did graciously take the punishment for sin that was justly due to sinners.

  14. Randy Miller November 26, 2010 at 7:44 pm #

    Fascinating discussion …
    I really enjoyed Dr. Hovinds blog, and all of the post’s (except the one darwinist offering).
    Good job friends!

  15. Don Carr November 27, 2010 at 1:26 am #

    Revelations 22:11

    “Whoever keeps acting wickedly, let him go on acting wickedly; whoever is filthy, let him go on being made filthy.

    “Also, whoever is righteous, let him go on doing what is righteous;
    and whoever is holy, let him go on being made holy.”

  16. Caleb Fielding November 27, 2010 at 2:51 pm #

    Alfred

    Because of our ancestry with fish-like creatures, (see fossil Tiktaalik, Neil Shubin) we are poorly adapted to walking and standing. The cartilage in our joints has been stretched to accommodate these functions. It’s the reason “we” as a species get arthritis and joint problems far more than other creatures. Another blunder.

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    Physics teaches us that you need at least three points of contact to have good balance. We have two and we still have good balance, furthermore with a little bit of training you can stand on one leg and have good balance. Also it depends how you stand.
    furthermore we get arthritis because we do not give our bodies the nutrition they need. Try apple cider viniger it should take care of the problem, I suggest two teaspoons a day, although you may want to start with less. Google it. By the way I agree it is a blunder our blunder for not putting in the nutrition we need to keep our bodies healthy.

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    Another problem with the human form the cranial nerves below the brain; they are jumbled up like a heap of spaghetti. Sharks have all the cranial nerves we have, and they are actually patterned and pass directly to the proper brain structures. God must have thought they deserved a more elegant looking set of cranial nerves.

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    Sharks are much simpler than humans. sharks get movement from always moving their rear fin left and right and get vertical movement from changing the position of their front two fins kinda like an airplane. Also they can not move backward. compare this limited mobility to what a human can do (although most americans dont do). We have two legs, with dozens of muscles each and two feet with lots of muscles, that depending on how you use them can do many a marvelous thing (see gymnast or martial artist) not to mention two arms, with two hands that have ten digits at the end of them that are doing different things together to type (assuming you did not peck out what you wrote). I am pointing this out because when you have a more complex movement you have to have more complex communication to do it, and you must have quicker communication to do it. Since our brain is ” jumbled up like a heap of spaghetti” you have more communication so that you can do some amazingly complex movement in no time flat. Furthermore depending on what you do you need your hands and feet to work together with timing and balance so you have to have everything communicating at the same time to each other and the closer they are in that jumbled up heap the faster they communicate. Which is a plus.

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    You are right birds have better eyesite than us. But see my previously posted post about perfection.

    I also dont understand your point about chimpanzies and apes. especially after what bloody mary, hillery clinton, and nancy pelozi have done in war mongering.

  17. Mark James November 27, 2010 at 2:54 pm #

    Hi Alfred,

    I have some major issues with the assertion that what you perceive as “poor” design is evidence that there is no God. The first internal combustion engine was very poorly designed when compared to what we have today. Does that prove that it did not have a designer?

    These assertions of poor design are always based on our scientific understanding, which at best is inadequate and is constantly being updated. Your example of the human eye is a case in point. In 2007 scientists discovered the Muller glial cells which form a fibre optic plate that guides light to the photo receptors with virtually no distortion or loss. These cells have now been found to leak out “noise,” reduce chromatic aberration, tune out non-visible wavelengths (reducing potential damage) and sharpen images by directing light to specific receptors. Far from being “poor design” the eye is now considered to be “an optimal structure” and an inspiration for superior camera design.

    I believe God created everything as it was required to be, so a bird’s eye, for instance, is perfectly designed for the job it has to do. Evolutionists would argue that this is exactly the result that would be expected from evolution but I would argue that the human eye is the exception. Our eyes are perfectly adequate for our survival but when combined with the human brain the eye becomes something quite remarkable. To improve poor vision we invent glasses, to see around corners we invent mirrors, to see the distant stars we invent telescopes, to see the smallest cell components we invent microscopes, to see in the dark we invent night vision goggles. None of this would be predicted by evolution.

  18. Mark James November 27, 2010 at 2:57 pm #

    Alfred (again),

    Have you ever considered the statistical improbability that one type of eye was created without a designer, let alone the myriad of eye types that we see in nature. Statistics proves evolution wrong at every turn.

  19. ant bourdon November 27, 2010 at 7:16 pm #

    Hey Alfred,
    I agree with you. Man is imperfect by nature. As example, we don’t have eyes that can see to the end of the Universe and need telescopes. This is a great imperfection. And then, we can’t have enough strength to destroy the moon by blowing some air towards it. This is so imperfect. God must not have thought well his creation.

    We are also not perfect since we can’t resist a lightning strike or produce one ourselves. That would be so great. Also, isn’t that strange that we can’t fly naturally? See, these are all proofs that creation is not perfect.

    I approve also your idea to evolve a bit more toward bonobos. I encourage you to level up a bit your intelligence to that level.

    Seriously, don’t be silly. You shouldn’t confuse the word “limited” with “not perfect”. If children had the strength to kill their parents, that would be less limited yes, but it would be a far greater imperfection than the contrary. If we cannot destroy the earth, isn’t that so for our own good? See, most of the time, being limited is a great perfection and order. If the mouse was not more limited than the eagle, how could the eagle capture it?

    And for you silly idea that bonobos are more advanced than man, the problem is that you confuse between a destructive natural behaviour and an evil behaviour. Chimps can be aggressive, but they can’t choose to control their behaviour. Men are able to choose and can do very good or very bad actions. Man has other needs than the basic ones that bonobos have. If you contest that, it may be because you are one yourself. Second, I don’t have trouble to see around me that men are not less aggressive towards others because they copulate with every women. It is also easy to see that boys living in a society dominated by women tend to be irrational, weak, lazy, not productive, etc. Men are psychologically made to lead society and their family. This is not only a cultural inheritance, but also a natural pulse.
    Don’t you know that some men do not care about relations with others and just want to dominate the world? If bonobos can live well with their behaviour, it’s because they cannot make any plan of making any evil. Their only need is to eat and have sex and they don’t have the brain to make any plans. They are not attracted toward power. Men are not satisfied by basic needs, so some people will do evil to get power, money, etc. to satisfy their greater inner needs. Your idea can’t answer the spiritual needs of people. It’s made for animals with basic needs. If you only have those, then I can understand why you can’t understand humanity.

    Didn’t it get through you head once that maybe the world isn’t in peace because people do not practice God’s commandments which is to love one another and not because we are not animals? If you want to act like an animal, go for it. But don’t come here and try to make us think you are rational in extending your theory to everyone’s experience.

  20. Duane November 28, 2010 at 8:03 am #

    Quote from Christopher Hitchens in his debate with Tony Blair a couple days ago:

    “Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects, in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well. I’ll repeat that. Created sick, and then ordered to be well. And over us, to supervise this, is installed a celestial dictatorship, a kind of divine North Korea. Greedy, exigent, greedy for uncritical phrase from dawn until dusk and swift to punish the original sin with which it so tenderly gifted us in the very first place.

    However, let no one say there’s no cure, salvation is offered, redemption, indeed, is promised, at the low price of the surrender of your critical faculties.”

  21. John Bebbington November 29, 2010 at 10:56 am #

    Mark wrote: “To improve poor vision we invent glasses, to see around corners we invent mirrors, to see the distant stars we invent telescopes, to see the smallest cell components we invent microscopes, to see in the dark we invent night vision goggles. None of this would be predicted by evolution.”

    Evolution predicts nothing. Like me without my glasses it is blind. It is reactive not proactive.

    If our eyes had been better designed millions of people around the world would not be blinded by cataracts.

    It took 200,000 years before modern man could even see the back of his own head. Think of all those poor people dying without ever knowing whether their barber had given them a decent haircut.

    To see distant galaxies we needed German rocket engineers to first practice landing materials on London.

    For 200,000 years my forebears and I have stumbled around in the dark because, unlike the owls who keep me awake at night, none of us have night vision goggles.

    As for microscopes, I admit that we evolutionists do need those but for what purpose I’ll leave you creationists to guess at.

  22. Stephen Holshouser November 29, 2010 at 9:32 pm #

    Duane,

    You posted this quote;

    “Once you assume a creator and a plan, it makes us objects, in a cruel experiment, whereby we are created sick, and commanded to be well. I’ll repeat that. Created sick, and then ordered to be well. And over us, to supervise this, is installed a celestial dictatorship, a kind of divine North Korea. Greedy, exigent, greedy for uncritical phrase from dawn until dusk and swift to punish the original sin with which it so tenderly gifted us in the very first place. However, let no one say there’s no cure, salvation is offered, redemption, indeed, is promised, at the low price of the surrender of your critical faculties.”

    Let me modify this poorly thought out, blasphemous quote to illustrate what YOU believe;

    “Once you assume that evolutionism is true, it makes us objects of no value at all, in an accidental experiment, whereby we have evolved sickness, and without hope of ever becoming well. Evolved with no purpose or meaning in life except to take up space and resources and wait for death and nothingness… existing in a universe that will, itself, end in heat death. Having pleasures and ease in life are empty as well because they quickly come to an end. Even passing on your genes to the next generation is meaningless and an exercise in futility, for they too will all perish into nothingness. The only reason anyone would have to practice any kindness or goodness towards others would be to ultimately advance one’s self. And over us, to supervise this, is nothing at all, a kind of mass chaos and anarchy… there’s no cure, salvation is not offered, redemption isn’t promised– at any price at all. However, to believe that everything created itself from nothing, you must surrender your critical faculties.”

    If you would rather believe this, I guess you are free to, but it won’t change reality any. Why so much hatred for something that you don’t believe exists? May I offer the answer? It is because at least in some point in your life, you realized that there has to be an Almighty Creator, yet as you considered Him and the state of the world, you concluded that such a being would not qualify as what you deemed to be a loving God. Do you think God has to give account of Himself to you or any other man? Do you think you are in a position to judge the One who gives life to all? Do you think there is no chance that your reasoning could be flawed or that you can’t see the whole picture? Do you think you have higher morals or a better plan than God? Do you think trying to come up with another alternative to God is going to make Him disappear?

    I would urge you to consider the fact that your knowledge is very limited compared to God’s. I don’t know why God does everything He does either, but I know He will do what is good and right. (Btw; He gets to say what is good and right because He has the might!) By rejecting Him, you are only cutting your nose off to spite your face you’re not hurting God any, but you’re wronging your own soul. One day all will be clear and plain to see that God is just in all that He has done until then, give your Maker the benefit of the doubt do you enjoy your life or have a bunch to be thankful for? I bet you do you see, He’s even good to those that hate Him. The Bible says, “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentence.” (Rom 2:4) Duane, may it be so with you very soon before your life is wasted on vanity.

    May the Lord bless you

  23. Mark James November 29, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    Hi John,

    OK, poor choice of words when I wrote “None of this would be predicted by evolution, but I stand my the point I was making. What a bird (or an octopus, for that matter) sees is limited by its eyes. Our eyes are perfectly adequate for our survival but when linked to our brain they become an amazing tool for discovery.

  24. Duane November 30, 2010 at 5:16 am #

    “Let me modify this poorly thought out, blasphemous quote to illustrate what YOU believe;”

    [Blasphemy is an epithet bestowed by superstition upon common sense.-- Robert Green Ingersoll,]

    “Once you assume that evolutionism is true, it makes us objects of no value at all, [Here's where you are wrong. You do have value and it is in what you make of the only life we know for sure we have. Far better is it to accomplish something and add to the experience of your fellow man than to waste your life hoping for a better one to come.] in an accidental experiment, whereby we have evolved sickness, and without hope of ever becoming well. [Sickness is indeed part of the living condition and it exists Are we to presume that God made sickness, then? It is common among man and animals and plants. And yes it is a consequence of evolving. It is also often cured by man. Praying doesn't fix it, nor does God's bestselling novel. Next time you are sick, either go to the doctor or go to your local priest with a couple turtledoves and see which one fixes you] Evolved with no purpose or meaning in life except to take up space and resources and wait for death and nothingness [It is so sad how you devalue life. This is what makes necessary the elaborate fantasy that we have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe, a being of infinite power and benevolence that can't be bothered to actually do anything.] existing in a universe that will, itself, end in heat death [in several billion years. The Sun will have blown up and all life on earth perished long before then, but yes, that is the reality. Reality isn't always pleasant]. Having pleasures and ease in life are empty as well because they quickly come to an end ["Happiness is not a reward - it is a consequence. Suffering is not a punishment - it is a result." Robert Green Ingersoll ]. Even passing on your genes to the next generation is meaningless and an exercise in futility, for they too will all perish into nothingness [Only if they make nothing of their lives.]. The only reason anyone would have to practice any kindness or goodness towards others would be to ultimately advance one’s self [Or simple altrusim. Perhaps it is just the right thing to do]. And over us, to supervise this, is nothing at all, a kind of mass chaos and anarchy [Where is this supervisor? For all the credit He is given, he seems to leave things to their own devices.] there’s no cure, salvation is not offered, redemption isn’t promised at any price at all [Redemption from what? I don't feel I need redeemed for simply being human. Why are you so ashamed of being human?]. However, to believe that everything created itself from nothing, you must surrender your critical faculties. [This is the same disingenuous statement you people keep making over and over. You believe everything came from nothing but just imagine an unexplained being (who either came from nothing, or through special pleading was always there) said some magic words that did it. You just add an additional step, but it is essentially the same thing.]”

    “If you would rather believe this, I guess you are free to, but it won’t change reality any. Why so much hatred for something that you don’t believe exists? May I offer the answer? It is because at least in some point in your life, you realized that there has to be an Almighty Creator, yet as you considered Him and the state of the world, you concluded that such a being would not qualify as what you deemed to be a loving God. Do you think God has to give account of Himself to you or any other man? Do you think you are in a position to judge the One who gives life to all? Do you think there is no chance that your reasoning could be flawed or that you can’t see the whole picture? Do you think you have higher morals or a better plan than God? Do you think trying to come up with another alternative to God is going to make Him disappear?”

    [What I find is that religious indoctrination denies reality and teaches non-critical thinking and a belief in magic and wish-fulfillment fantasies of ultimate reward and outrageous punishment. It appeals to the two greatest human emotions, fear and greed. We are taught to trust implicitly anything that claims fealty with this imaginary being at a tremendous price. Followers are so desperate for some tangible manifestation of their beliefs they cling to those who claim extra knowledge or insight into this fantasy. How easy is it to take advantage of a believer? A $2 prayer book and the gift of gab and you can make a good living off the people than can least afford it. Mention Jesus enough and you can get away with anything. Perhaps the Big Bang and Evolution aren't the complete total answer. That doesn't mean the magic words and talking snake are.]

    [And yes, I think God needs to give account of Himself to us and humanity if He does exist. How cruel is it to create a place of eternal damnation and not tell anyone about it for thousands of years. When you do finally let the word get out, it is among a small tribe in the armpit of the world who make it a point to keep to themselves. And all of this because your imperfect first creation that you created not knowing right from wrong, disobeyed (goaded by you -tell a child stay away from something and see what becomes his obsession) and ate a piece of fruit explicitly designed to bestow the very thing you punished him for not knowing?]

    “I would urge you to consider the fact that your knowledge is very limited compared to God’s. I don’t know why God does everything He does either, but I know He will do what is good and right. (Btw; He gets to say what is good and right because He has the might!) By rejecting Him, you are only cutting your nose off to spite your face, you’re not hurting God any, but you’re wronging your own soul. One day all will be clear and plain to see that God is just in all that He has done until then, give your Maker the benefit of the doubt do you enjoy your life or have a bunch to be thankful for? I bet you do you see, He’s even good to those that hate Him. The Bible says, “The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentence.” (Rom 2:4) Duane, may it be so with you very soon before your life is wasted on vanity.”

    [ God knows exactly what it would take to convince me, and so far He has decided that He wants me to be a non-believer.]

    [We have already compared the benefits of theology and science. When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of men, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins -- they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of to-day. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of to-day -- of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.
    These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars -- neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience -- and for them all, man is indebted to man.
    -- Robert Green Ingersoll]

  25. Caleb Fielding November 30, 2010 at 11:45 am #

    If our eyes had been better designed millions of people around the world would not be blinded by cataracts

    {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{

    If you increase your vitamin c intake many eye problems like cataracts go away. Did you know that there is 25% more vitamin c in your eye than the rest of your body?

    }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

    For 200,000 years my forebears and I have stumbled around in the dark because, unlike the owls who keep me awake at night, none of us have night vision goggles.

    {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{

    If creation is true then man would have been smart enough at the beginning to make fire and torches, making your point, pointless. Remember if you are going to argue against someones world view you have to remember what it is.

    {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{

    It took 200,000 years before modern man could even see the back of his own head. Think of all those poor people dying without ever knowing whether their barber had given them a decent haircut.

    To see distant galaxies we needed German rocket engineers to first practice landing materials on London.

    )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    So what. The BIble says that the creation was good, not perfect. For it to be perfect as we define perfect we would have to be God. So you are basically arguing that since God did not make us exactly like him, with all his knowledge, and power, and ability, there is no God. That may be a great way to disprove God back at the dorm room to the other atheist but you are not trying to prove your point to a bunch of atheist you are trying to prove your point to someone with a creationist world view,

    And by the way God made us in him image. Like you make a photograph in your image. How much greater are you than that photograph? If we are a photo of God, then How great must God be?

  26. Don Carr November 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm #

    Order out of Chaos.

    We do live in an irrational broken experimental world. And in a sense we are ordered to heal ourselves.

    And it takes critical faculties to realize that the solution must pass through the eye of a needle. Essentially our physical form must be accepted into a new coding of energy that in a dematerialized form can pass through the dimensional gates of this restricted world.

    And we cannot do this without outside help – help from our eternal brethern. They have the technology to advance this fallen realm, and we are part of that plan. To participate we must ALLOW baptisimal Light to penetrate and transform our being. It is our job in many cases.

    Having said that, they are coming for us in a physical way – soon – because this region is so chaotic. Beware the fallen masters of chaos.

  27. John Bebbington November 30, 2010 at 2:00 pm #

    Hi Mark,

    Google “Hans Rosling 200 countries” to see the amazing triumph of the power of science over the power of prayer. Unless, of course, everybody was praying for science to produce better health outcomes than religion.

  28. Pokkels De Jager November 30, 2010 at 4:15 pm #

    I cannot praise my heavenly father enough for the absolute joy He allowed me in viewing the Creation Science Evangelism DVD series seminar. I’ve noticed though that most (almost all?) people are securely enslaved in the ‘worldly’ mind set where all choices are influenced by numerous factors, instead of only ONE!

    Take the evolution as propagated earlier. The octopus eye has better colour discrimination than the human eye??!! Obviously this must be because it has evolved further than the human eye, I guess. This surely means that the human eyesight gets better with time? Definitely not in mine!

    YHWH operates and expects everything to function on the digital principle, He created everything accordingly and gave us His Word stating that He expects us to honour this principle from verse one to verse last! He created heaven/earth. He created light, lack of light is darkness. He created goodness, lack of goodness is evil. He is love, lacking Him is hate. YAHSHUA said let your word be yes,yes and no,no. One of only two choices! Logical ’1′ or logical ’0′. End of story, everything else but yes or no is honouring Lucifer who invented the third, fourth …. billionth ‘other’ options.

    You will either have a spirit, re-created from the Holy Spirit after you’ve accepted Christ the Messiah as your Deliverance from sin, or, you will have the spirit you’ve been born with, dead since Adam, in sin.

    The number of ‘Christians’ today, which still flirts with eternal death as they compromise GOD’s ’1′ with not ’1′ i.e. ’0′, breaks my heart. Please read His Word (KJV) and note that even people who has driven out demons in His name may fall short of His glory as they’ve done it for themselves by their own power.

    Thanks again for all the inspiration and encouragement I’ve received from the Most High through your ministries.

  29. Caleb Fielding November 30, 2010 at 9:32 pm #

    [ God knows exactly what it would take to convince me, and so far He has decided that He wants me to be a non-believer.]

    [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

    every knee will bow and every tounge confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. It is not a matter of whether or not you will believe but whether in life or eternity.

    [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

    [We have already compared the benefits of theology and science. When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of men, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins — they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of to-day. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of to-day — of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.

    [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

    Outside of the cathlic church theology has greatly benifited man kind. How many tribes were cannabilistic two hundred years ago that are now christian because of theology? How has missionaries like david livingstone, james chalmers, nate saint, greatly help the study of geography when they mapped contenents and islands so that missionaries could bring men the gospel? How many languges have writting right now becuse men felt the great need to put Gods word in a languge with no writting? how many orphens did george muller and those like him feed cloth house and teach to read and write? How come 150 years ago 97% of this country had a very high reading level (college level today) when this country loved Gods word? I could keep going about what the theologens of every denomination (except cathlic, I fully submit that they did much evil, particularly to anybody that was a believer that was not cathlic) have done but I do not have the time.

    Please explain how the soviet union, or pal pots regiem or cuba, have made the middle class have what you said they have. Considering all three shut down the theology aspect of their respective country. Heck infact they did the exact oppisite of what you claim. Could you give an example of a country that has thrown out theology and gotten better because of it?

    [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

    These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars — neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience — and for them all, man is indebted to man.

    [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

    you are right that they did not just fall from the sky that only happened with mana. And priest are the problem. You are right when you say not in cathedrals, alters or holy candles (whatever that is).

    But george muller, david livingstone, jim eliot, etc would greatly disagree with you saying it was not an answer to prayer. Read any of their biographies, or just google them. they would disagree with you because of experience.

    I do agree that they are the children of freedom, and the gifts of reason, observation and experience, but all of those things come from obeying Gods word. Especially freedom. When we do not obey the law freedom goes. Look at how little the fed gov obeys the law, and with that disobedience goes freedom. Then goes the next three.

  30. Duane November 30, 2010 at 10:53 pm #

    And no, I don’t hate God. God is imaginary. It’s like saying I hate Darth Vader. What I do hate is an organization that empowers itself by making its followers feel worthless and that they can only be of value if they buy what it is selling. Imagine if the rest of the world worked like that. “You are a worthless, evil creature and have been since the first man walked upon the earth. So wash away those sins with Oxy-Kleen! Your life is meaningless without the oxygen boosting cleaning power of Oxy-Kleen!”

    You think you are describing my world as dark and without meaning, when you are simply projecting the brainwashing you have endured since you were children needed to buy into this totally irrational belief system. That you have no intrinsic value without this fantasy makes me sad for all of you. This it the most insidious thing religion does. Every time you try to describe the world of the non-believer as a meaningless meandering through life then you make my case.

  31. Stephen Holshouser December 1, 2010 at 7:56 am #

    Duane,

    You said, “What I find is that religious indoctrination denies reality and teaches non-critical thinking…”

    Yes, I agree that religions do this… but not Bible-based Christianity… the Bible encourages you to find out the actual truth for yourself; to test things, to be sure that you are right. Doing this strengthens the case for Christ, not weakens it.

    You said, “And yes, I think God needs to give account of Himself to us and humanity if He does exist. How cruel is it to create a place of eternal damnation and not tell anyone about it for thousands of years. When you do finally let the word get out, it is among a small tribe in the armpit of the world who make it a point to keep to themselves. And all of this because your imperfect first creation that you created not knowing right from wrong…”

    Why do you think no one knew about hell for thousands of years? I’m sure that there have been some places where the teaching of hell has been lost, but even if so, God’s entire creation that we all have lived in has preached to us a Creator that we would do good to seek after… He has left tremendous evidence of Himself for all and given us all a conscience and desire to find out how we came into being.

    With regard to your claim of Adam and Eve not knowing right from wrong before they ate the fruit; It is clear that they knew it was wrong to eat what their Maker told them not to eat before they ate it… otherwise they would have done it before Satan tricked Eve. You are assuming that before they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they didn’t know that they should obey God’s commandment. The Bible doesn’t say exactly what the fruit would do to their understanding or how much they understood before they ate it. But disobeying God always causes destruction in our lives and separation from Him.

    More response later if I have time.

  32. Stephen Holshouser December 1, 2010 at 8:23 am #

    Duane,

    You said, “God knows exactly what it would take to convince me, and so far He has decided that He wants me to be a non-believer.”

    Well, in a sense you are right… He is letting you continue on they way you want to go… that is true. But He has also commanded you to repent and believe the gospel. That command is from God to YOU right now and as long as you live. He is able to fix your unbelief.. you can ask Him to be merciful to you and give you a heart to know Him… or if you need to, ask Him to show you how your sin looks from His point of view.. you’ll never flee to Christ if you don’t ever see your need for Him to rescue you.

    You said, “Redemption from what? I don’t feel I need redeemed for simply being human. Why are you so ashamed of being human?”

    What do you mean by “being human?” Being human is great… however, lying, thieving, hatred, blaspheming, cheating, hurting, lusting, murdering, fornicating, being unthankful, being self-centered, slandering, and the like are shameful and reproachful to any human… have you done any of these things and are you not ashamed of yourself for it? If so, herein lies a lot of your problem.

    With regard to your claim of religion keeping the world in darkness and ignorance; again I agree with you about religions doing this. However, not Bible-based Christianity which has given rise to the greatest, most advanced, freest nation to ever live. Most branches of science were started by God-fearing creationists… Science, prosperity, and freedom are NEVER advanced by atheism my friend.